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I've Been Robbed!

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Category: Strategies, Guides & Help
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URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3050
Printed Date: 23 Apr 2024 at 11:12
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Topic: I've Been Robbed!
Posted By: Vanerin
Subject: I've Been Robbed!
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 02:32

Really?

How do you know that you've really been robbed? Well, you should receive a mail like this:

A shame-faced quartermaster from your storehouse has noticed supplies missing from your stockpile. He can't imagine how this has happened unless as a result of theft, and notes that some suspicious characters were spotted loitering around the storehouse earlier.”

And then the mail will tell you how much of what was taken. We will get back to this mail later.


Close That Door!

First thing to do is stop the thieves from getting anymore of your resources. Make sure that you have a good killing rune (either slaying or seeking). I normally suggest slaying, but switching to seeking temporarily might be a good idea if you are having an extra large helping of thieves. I am not going to go into how to defend yourself because Rill has already done an excellent job of that here( http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/basic-self-defense-for-new-players_topic2368.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/basic-self-defense-for-new-players_topic2368.html ).

Also, thieves can cost around 3,300 gold each (based on prices at the time of writing). If you can kill enough of them, it would not be worth it to the player to keep building thieves to have them become toast for carrion.

Ok, so lets assume that you've got your rune ready to wipe out hundreds of the buggers, a good alliance that might scare off the bad people, counter-thieves, and maybe a small vault.

Lets move on.


Gathering Intel

If you had a rune up that killed some thieves, you can find out some really good info. Here is what a typical mail from the rune will look like:

A diplomatic mission was seen approaching the outskirts of your city. As they closed on the city, a mighty roar and a flash of mystic light burst forth the gates.

When the smoke cleared a number of their units lay smouldering on the ground, now fit only for carrion.

Units slain or damaged:”

And then it will tell you the number of killed bad guys and what type they were. Using this info, you can tell the race which will help narrow down who-dun-it.

Burglar = basic human thief – 59 capacity – 16 defense – 15 attack

Master Thief = advanced human thief – 64 capacity – 30 defense – 38 attack

Footpad = basic dwarf thief – 57 capacity – 20 defense – 18 attack

Halfling = advanced dwarf thief – 60 capacity – 36 defense – 39 attack

Goblin Cutpurse = basic orc thief – 71 capacity – 18 defense – 14 attack

Plunderer = advanced orc thief – 76 capacity – 28 defense – 34 attack

Rouge = basic elf thief – 50 capacity – 17 defense – 14 attack

Dark Elf = advanced elf thief – 54 capacity – 29 defense – 31 attack


This info is also good for getting an idea of how many thieves are attacking you.

Take the total number of resources that where stolen at one time (I told you that we would get back to that mail) and divide it by the capacity of the thieves that attacked you. Ta-daaa, that is how many thieves you are dealing with. 

Also, if you didn't have an active rune when they struck, you can still figure out what the race of the thief was. Divide the total amount stolen in one go by all the different capacities and the one that divides evenly is the answer. Hopefully you don't have multiple answers. :P


It's a Trap!

To ambush the bad guys, you will need the following ingredients:

-Counter Intelligence (Research)

-Interrogation (Research)

-Thieves (Diplomatic Unit)

-Endurance (Player Trait)


To have a good chance at nabbing them, your thief defense score (you can see that here  http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Diplomatic" rel="nofollow - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Diplomatic  ) should be close to the attacker's score. To figure out the attack score, take the number of units they sent and multiply it by the attack number mentioned above for that unit. Also remember that basic thieves have a more efficient defense score/cost ratio than advanced ones. But if getting your defense numbers up fast is more important than efficiency, then go with t2.

Now, there is a good bit of randomness in all of this. Sometimes 1 thief will catch a whole bundle of the bad guys, other times a small party of thieves will waltz right past your army of counter-thieves. That is where the endurance comes in. You might need to tough it out for a bit.


They Went That Way →

If you can be online when the thieves come, you have some more options. You can look which direction the thieves are going after they rob you. Right now, they will travel in a straight line back to their lair. You can combine this info with what race they are, and a guess at how big the player would have to be to send you that number of thieves. So if you are in a sparsely populated area, that can be a big hint on who is picking on you.

Now, when you do that, you don't exactly get a precise figure on who-dun-it. It takes a little more effort (and luck) but there are more options. If you are online when the diplos come, you can send scouts or spies back along the path they bad guy came from. Scouts and spies have their own diplo visibility "bubble" so you can track the thieves. Just take several guess at where the bad diplo came from and send lots of your own diplos a little past their town. Oh, and you might want to send them from slightly different times too!

Here is a screenshot (thanks to Ryelle) of what this looks like:


See that red guy? All of the blue trumpets are watching him to see what town he disappears into.


And there is another thing you can do (probably in conjunction with the last option) to find that meany.

Take one screen shot with the thieves close to your town. (To all the smarties: Yes, I know that diplo isn't really a thief trying to get me. Just go with it for the purpose of the guide.) (To all the new players: Real thieves that are trying to get you will be red, not blue)


Then take another screen shot a little later.



You should then paste the two shots over each other.

Then you are going to pick a spot on the diplo unit icon that is easily identifiable. I choose the top left corner of the shield. Then all you have to do is connect the dots.



Ta-daa! It looks like the “thieves” came from that small human town that the red line crosses. Now, this still isn't 100% accurate. What if the real bad guy is just further down that line? That is where knowing the race and guessing the size of the player based on the number of thieves helps. Some.

Citizens Arrest! Citizens Arrest!

Once you have identified the perpetrator, you should let your alliance know before you do anything else. Mailing the player and telling them that you know they are stealing and they will get into trouble if they don't stop can also be good. But your alliance leadership might do that for you. Is attacking them back appropriate? I would say if a mail stops it, then that is good enough. If they are still stealing stuff after you have tried peaceful communications, then you are going to have to talk to your alliance.


A Few Last Notes

If you need something that was stolen so you can continue to grow, either your alliance or the awesome people in GC will probably help. But they probably won't send you loads of advanced res, because it could just be stolen again. And really, during this whole thing you should be talking with your alliance.


The Part That Isn't Here

I am probably forgetting something, so please let me know if there is anything that needs to be added. It would be very appreciated.


The End Credits

I want to give a big thanks to Ryelle, Fluffy, and Anjire. Without them, this guide wouldn't be worth reading.




Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 02:42
Really well done Vanerin! You made recovering from theft fun to read about.  A must-read for new players.


Posted By: WightNolf
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 03:19
Great Guide Van Thumbs Up
Will definitely come back to this should the need ever arise.


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Ofwgkta


Posted By: Mara Zira
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 17:42
Yes, a very nice, useful guide. Good work, Vanerin!


Posted By: Jane DarkMagic
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 02:11
You forgot the need to panic and threaten to quit the game.


Posted By: saynomore10
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 01:22
Great post!

Question, does gold count toward a thieves' carrying capacity? Or is it similar to caravans, where one van can carry unlimited gold?


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 01:50
Gold counts toward a thief's carrying capacity, so a thief can carry as many units of gold as its capacity.  In general it's more profitable to steal almost anything other than gold.


Posted By: saynomore10
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 03:21
Thanks!
In doing some math with gold factored in, turns out one of my fellow alliance members got robbed yesterday by 7000 Orc Plunderers. Yikes.


Posted By: hiram_sedai
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2012 at 15:25
So, there is no defense against being robbed other than reacting to it after it has happened?  

hoping that the nefarious burgler has learned his lesson after I rune him seems to be a weak defense.

please advise/admonish accordingly for  a noob.

thanks




Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2012 at 15:39
This guide describes how to defend from thieves

A combination of vault, rune and defending thieves are your best options -- as your city grows you will increasingly rely on runes and defending thieves.

http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/basic-self-defense-for-new-players_topic2368.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/basic-self-defense-for-new-players_topic2368.html


Posted By: Dew
Date Posted: 07 May 2012 at 01:19
I Have noticed that this method (line overlay and such) has identified the wrong perpetrator in 3 at least instances. other than actually catching the thieves by your diplomats is there another way to accurately determine a thief?


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 07 May 2012 at 03:10
sending scouts/spies in a "bubble" around an enemy diplo is effective, albeit time-consuming.


Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 07 May 2012 at 08:15
The 'lining up' method named by Vaneirin can also be done more efficiently with Illy Tools, I'd also like to add.


Posted By: crowse silver beam
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2012 at 12:46
very interesting way of detecting whom has stolen from you.


Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2012 at 20:36
it used to be harder for the thief to make off with goods, the world map used to display the diplomat to everyone sans the person that was thieved.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 19:08
To be honest, all the plotting, tracking and following diplos means actually nothing unless you actually have a system mail which tells you exactly who sent the offending diplomats. You can have suspicions but that is basically it. If someone tells me I was a thief because they saw diplomats heading to my town I will laugh at them. System mails are the only true proof you can have of identifying anyone who has attacked you with diplomats.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 19:12
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

To be honest, all the plotting, tracking and following diplos means actually nothing unless you actually have a system mail which tells you exactly who sent the offending diplomats. You can have suspicions but that is basically it. If someone tells me I was a thief because they saw diplomats heading to my town I will laugh at them. System mails are the only true proof you can have of identifying anyone who has attacked you with diplomats.

Having multiple witnesses watch tracked diplomats disappear into a particular city is pretty convincing proof.  The perpetrator may still attempt to deny it, but others will know it is true.  Most importantly, the victim him/herself will know.

It is possible that some alliances will not accept such tracking as a reason to take action against the perpetrator, but again the important thing for most people is that they know who the responsible party was.


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 19:35
This article doesn't mention friendly reinforcement. Perhaps diplomatic attachments for armies weren't available when it was written in 2012. As I understand it, you can attach a large group of thieves to a small army and reinforce the town. This should increase its defense score against thieves.

Can anyone verify that from experience? Also, I'm curious if the friendly diplomats will cause an interrogation, or if it will just defeat the incoming thieves without a system mail.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 20:57
Yes, reinforcing thieves will defend a city from incoming thieves.  Any interrogation reports would be received by the owner of the city, who will need to have researched Interrogation for it to be effective.


Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 22:48
Ehm, warning...!

To my knowledge the DEVS introduced a script some year ago, due to which thiefs alter the angle of their attack slightly before hitting the town.... so that exactly this method is not as relying as it was before...

...not exactly sure, if this still is implemented?   Confused


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 23:15
Hora, my understanding is that the change you describe was _planned_ but never implemented.  I have tracked diplo units a number of times in the past year using the method described in Vanerin's post and it has worked quite well.


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 00:06
Anytime diplos are launched, the attacker accepts risk of loss/confession/detection.

It's more about what the defender will do in retaliation.  "Proof", then, is only relevant to justify the retaliation.  So "evidence" is not important to convince the attacker, but instead to convince the defender's allies to support retaliation.


Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 00:31
Tracking:

A few things to keep in mind while tracking diplomatic units.

There is a built in wobble to their displayed movement on the global map.  You can see this in effect if you refresh  your map a number of times over and over as the unit will appear to jump about.

The closer to your city the unit you are tracking is the less accurate your trajectory/vector will be.  So it is important to follow and track for as long as your able to though after an hour or two you will have narrowed the options down to a very concise path.  This following and tracking is hardest for dwarf players due to the slower speeds of dwarven units but that is where your alliance/allies/friends/contacts come in.

The unit you want to send to track a diplomat unit leaving your city is an advanced spy unit because it has a 4 square visibility radius and is usually the fastest unit your race has with visibility.

---------------------------------------------------

When following and tracking the further away from your city your can follow it and track it the more precise your trajectory/vector will be due to the above mentioned wobble affect.  Usually, it only takes a good hour or so of following to be able to pin point the likely sender at which point you can take a number of different actions to verify your suspicions.

The first area to go over is to ensure as exact a reading as you can.  My method is to ensure you have map grids on to help in your accuracy.  Just remember that the grid lines fall at the .5 distance of a map square.   The next thing is that you want to record the diplomatic unit at the smallest zoom level (0) so that only one map square appears on your square.  This will limit the affect the built in wobble has on your accuracy.  At full zoom(25) the wobble can jump the unit around by as much as 2 full squares.  At the smallest zoom the wobble will account for no more then +/- .1 in your reading.   To record the reading I will position my mouse following the moving diplomat and wait for the tick of the second hand to hit :00, :15, :30, :45 seconds.  I will then record the position of the mouse at that time estimating to the nearest tenth.  

I created a google spreadsheet to record these numbers so it will calculate the slope of travel and speed of the unit for me.   With this information, I can then enter in future times and predict where and when the unit will be on the map. You can then spread to your alliance members/allies/friends/contacts to help with tracking/following said diplomatic unit.   So, even if I were to lose track of the unit for a small amount of time it is easy enough to pick up again and follow given a few data points.  

You can also use the trajectory to eliminate any need to track closely because many times there are no cities for lengthy amount of times that the unit comes close to.  The other thing this allows you to do if you have access to the master city list is to find out any cities that have a similar slope to the unit you are tracking.  

------------------------------

Putting this all together:

On your own, even as a dwarf, you should be able to get accurate readings up to an hour or even two hours out from your city.  If you are able to, take a readings every ~10 to 15 minutes.  I would allow at least 5 minutes between readings though.  With these calculations of slope and speed you can then plot a very concise trajectory/vector.  This will let you inform alliance members, allies, friends and contacts that are along the path that the unit you are tracking is travelling.  Up to and including the exact path and time they will be able to see the unit traverse within their city view.  I have done this on numerous occasions with great success.  You can also have these players send out clouds of advanced spies to extend their scope if needed.  Finally, if there is enough time you can attach advanced spies to army units(I suggest t1 cavalry commander and t1 cavalry) and camp them along the path of travel so that you don't have to micromanage a flock of spies.  Using this latter method you can also have a number of players camped out to watch said unit come home to roost.    




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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 05:00
Wow! That was very helpful Anjire. Thank you so much!

~Vanerin


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 08:35
If you need to boost the speed of diplomatic units, you can embed them in a fast escort. A T1 cavalry commander with Forced March 10/10 also affects scouts and spies from the division's Diplomatic Contingent. Dwarven packsmen can reach 22.5 at top speed, and get a +15% from elven thoroughbreds as well. Equip light leather armor and a light spear for another +10% bonus, each. The division won't be elite--the diplomat counts as mixing troop types--but it will travel considerably faster than the slower diplomats. The max speed of that setup is just over 30, and a Keeper of Secrets at maximum Forced March is 27.5 squares per hour. You can tune the gear to precisely select the desired top speed.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 20:39
One of the main problems of embedding diplos with troops is that you are then limited to being able to send out 5 sets from any given city.  Also you have to Attack, Raid or Occupy the destination square, which could be a little dangerous if someone has happened to land there in the meantime with their army.  They could take it amiss (and you could lose your diplos).  Not saying it shouldn't be done, but it has limited utility.


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 20:55
It is one trick of many, and all tricks are worth noting.

A collision is extremely unlikely. If you managed it, you would almost certainly not kill anything with a pair of T1 cavalry, except perhaps unprotected harvesters. As to the potential loss of 2 soldiers and 1 spy, it's hardly worth noting. The battle report itself would prove that you dispatched your army while the square was still empty.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 21:18
Someone with 60 skinners on a square would probably not be amused.


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 21:53
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Someone with 60 skinners on a square would probably not be amused.

Someone with 60 unprotected skinners on a square is a fool.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 23:02
You seem a bit quick to judge there.  Are you sure such a strong characterization is necessary?  I mean, it sounds good, but there could be a variety of reasons for that happening, such as calling back an army when you see another opportunity.  Many people use unprotected skinners when they are quite close to their city.


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 02:43
Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Someone with 60 skinners on a square would probably not be amused.

Someone with 60 unprotected skinners on a square is a fool.

LOL

So a "fool" then retaliates and you take some level of loss.  How does that characterization lessen the loss?

Sometimes it's the littlest, thoughtless actions that cause the biggest problems.  There are bored people in Illy that would care less about loosing 60 skinners but would love to have a "reason" to start a war.



Posted By: Llyr
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 03:02
Speaking from experience, anyone who sends unprotected harvesters anywhere should be prepared to accept their loss. That's the reason mine have a pension plan; many don't live long enough to collect it. And yes, sending 60 unprotected harvesters of any type to a square, no matter how close to your town, is foolish unless you don't care about losing them.

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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/187558" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 04:17
Animals in motion will land on the square, if they will be in place after your harvesters are dispatched, but before they arrive. I've had enough cotters eaten by golden monkeys to prove that point, and I once had 20 skinners eaten by giant beetles. That was the last time I ever sent unescorted skinners to a square. Every time I'm tempted to send them out defenseless, I remember how torqued I was that those skinners got eaten, and I let the animal parts expire.

As to this unlikely scenario, are talking about a 1-in-1,000,000 chance here. Your army would be sent to an empty square a large distance away, maybe 100-200 tiles. In the intervening time before its arrival, a random group of animals would have to toddle over to the square and stop. Then a player would have to kill the animals in question, choose not to leave an army, and send a large number of skinners to harvest. All before your own army reaches the square. I'd have a better chance of throwing a dart off the top of the Empire State Building and hitting a dart board somewhere on the sidewalk.

Salarius, anyone who started a war over an unfortunate and fully documented accident would be quickly shouted down in GC. Short of war, if they sent 1000 saboteurs to your city in retaliation... I guess you won the Bad Luck Lottery. Most players I know would accept a sincere apology and an effort to repay some or all of the damages.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 04:28
"anyone who starte a war over an unfortunate and fully documented accident would be quickly shouted down in GC"

/me chokes


Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 04:39
This thread is a guide about thieves. Please keep posts on topic. Discussions about other topics should go elsewhere.

Luna

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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: st aug
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 19:49
Very nice post. job well done.



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