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Trading For Dummies

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Strategies, Guides & Help
Forum Name: Strategies, Tips & Tricks
Forum Description: Player created guides and advice.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=2648
Printed Date: 01 Oct 2020 at 05:53
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Topic: Trading For Dummies
Posted By: <Squill>
Subject: Trading For Dummies
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 10:12

Trading For Dummies

A comprehensive guide.

By Squill



Are the markets a mystery to you? Are you left in the dark while your neighbors have that new skylight in their keep? Do you know how they managed to afford such a luxury? Read on and you will be enlightened. 


 

They played the market; wised up to the ways of Illy trade and sold their soles. Now it your time to turn in a profit and walk the Silk Road. Follow your feet as you follow this guide.

"Look at market fluctuations as your friend rather than your enemy; profit from folly rather than participate in it."  

Warren Buffett

 

Buildings:

The first thing that you should upgrade/build to start earning a profit is a Market Place, and then followed by a Common Ground, and a Paddock. Upgrade these buildings (not at the expense of upgrading other buildings) continuously, the higher you upgrade the faster you produce the more profit. Certain research requires that you have certain building already built. All these buildings can be found under the City Research Tab.

Most Profitable Resources To Sell (In descending order):

Chainmail - Blacksmith

Cows - Common Ground

Swords - Blacksmith (You can only build one type of product at a time in a Blacksmith)

Books - Book Binder (Horses replace Books in this spot during Tournaments)

Horses - Paddock

Plate Amour - Forge

Bows - Fletcher

Beer - Brewery

Spears - Spear Maker

This list was created by the examining the cost of basic resources; advanced resources, and gold required to produce an individual product. Also note that while Saddles are the most expensive resources on the market they require two cows to produce; this in turn lowers their profitability. Another important observation is the producing siege block and selling them on the market is operating on a loss; so I would not suggest building a siege workshop at all as you can just buy siege blocks for much less.

 

Research:

Most research under City is required in order to build Advanced Resource producing buildings. Additionally, research under Trading is also important as this allows you to have more caravans in your town; also enabling you to increase the carrying capacity.

Research required produce:

Chainmail - Smiting

Cows - None

Swords - Smiting

Books - Bookbinding

Horses - None

Plate Amour -Forging

Bows - Fletching

Beer - Brewing (under Quest)

Spears - Spearmaking

 

More Caravans - Haggling, Bartering, Trading, Mercantilism, Cartels ... (under Trade)

Higher Carrying Capacity - Improved Loading, Reinforced Cartwheels ... (under Trade)

 

The Market:

The market place is where everything comes together. This is where you are able to buy and sell resources. The market is fickle and largely dependent on what is going on around you.

  •           The price of advanced resources such as spears, saddles, swords, bows, horses, chainmail, plate amour, and leather amour are all used in large quantities when producing troops. So in times of war, and tournaments: when players produce more troops, these Advanced Resources become more expensive. 
  •           Cows and books are not directly used in war, so there prices remain relatively steady. Cows however are used indirectly in the production of troops because they are used to produce leather amour and saddles; the prices of cows remain relatively calm because people tend to produce Advanced Resources regardless of war. This is of course a profitable exercise so I suggest you do the same.
  •           The price of Basic Resources will continue to rise because as new players enter Illy they mostly require basic resources; so their demand will increase and thus their prices.
  •           Selling Advanced Resources that you have produced continuously is the only method that can bring you a large amount of wealth; taxing your cities is relatively insignificant until you have a huge population.

 

Buy and Sell

Buying and Selling is a simple process; if you desire a product you can accept a sell order or place a buy order. If you want to make a profit sell: Resources by placing a sell order. Buy orders only require one caravan to carry the gold, sell orders require as many caravans as the goods can fit into.

  •           Always remember to place your buy order or sell order with a relatively reasonable price; insure that the price you place it at; is the price that will see that your order is at the top of the list. If it is not there when you place it then it is unlikely that your order will be fulfilled. 
  •           I also believe in buy orders to get a much better price for goods: you should place buy orders instead of accepting sell orders. This might mean that you wait for a while; but in a relatively short period time, your buy order will be accepted for a much better price.
  •           Do not place large sell orders for advanced resources (over 500 products), this requires you to wait longer for you product to be sold because some people do not need that many Advanced Resources, or they do not have the funds for it.

 

 Other wealth gaining tips:

  •           Sovereign plots require a lot of Basic Resources and gold. The bonuses they provide do not amount to the price of the goods they require. So do not build them; especially if you are new to Illy.
  •           Set your tax to 0 percent when starting out as this provides you with more Basic Resources; this is far more valuable then gold at smaller populations.
  •           Do not produce troops when you are new to Illy; rather sell the resources that you require to build those troops. A rune is much better protection at younger stages.

 

That concludes this guide, further editions and alterations may be made later on to keep up with current trends.



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Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 10:38
This is a great guide! Thanks Squill.


Posted By: gangas
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 12:37
wonderful thanks  


Posted By: SoulRythm
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 13:58
Thank you for the good guide sir.


Posted By: Patchys
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 14:08
1. Thanks for the help
2. Good job
3. ????????
4. Profit!


Posted By: Vled
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 14:56
Hey this makes for interesting reading, here's to the first million gold! Clap


Posted By: Celebcalen
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 16:58


Hey! You're starting to write long posts Squill. A sure sign that you got the Illyriad bug   


A good guide!


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 17:10
Originally posted by Celebcalen Celebcalen wrote:



A good guide!

said by a poor player whit even worse social skills.
may stop your always OT , whit no constructive propose and hardly funny posts?



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my words on this forum are from me alone.
DLords official words only come from HighKing Belargyle


Posted By: Celebcalen
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 18:03
Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:


Originally posted by Celebcalen Celebcalen wrote:



A good guide!

said by a poor player whit even worse social skills.
may stop your always OT , whit no constructive propose and hardly funny posts?



Stop trying to twist things Kilo.


Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 18:07
A good guide, marred only by the approval of a troll.


Posted By: Henrii StormStar
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2011 at 15:32
This guide is very helpful and saves a lot of trial and error.

Thanks Squill :)


Posted By: Celebcalen
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2011 at 16:48
Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

A good guide, marred only by the approval of a troll.


...and a brownnoser   


Posted By: Koragg
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 03:08
Oh so THIS is the reason the price of cows dropped...Ermm
Oh well, according to market theory it was 'supposed' to happen.  Sale price was waaay higher than production price, hence economic theory states the market should have been flooded long ago, but that only just started happening now.


Posted By: Kallie
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 04:23
Thank You Squill!!  Great guide and exactly the info I was searching for.

StarStarStarStarStar


Posted By: <Squill>
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 06:41
Originally posted by Koragg Koragg wrote:

Oh so THIS is the reason the price of cows dropped...Ermm
Oh well, according to market theory it was 'supposed' to happen.  Sale price was waaay higher than production price, hence economic theory states the market should have been flooded long ago, but that only just started happening now.

The price of cows for the last couple of months has been relatively steady( though at a downward trend). We have only recently seen a significant drop in their prices for the last three weeks. Related to demand it seems; however I think it's just temporary. 

The slow downward trend is related to newbies being able to build and sell cows when they enter the game; without much hassle, so supply is picking up. I doubt that this has anything to do with the production price; because unlike the our markets in RL; Illy's market is not profit driven to that extent; it's more the fact that it's there and you can trade on it; so why not?


Er- Thank you everyone for your welcoming remarks.




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Posted By: Koragg
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 09:41
Originally posted by <Squill> <Squill> wrote:

 

The slow downward trend is related to newbies being able to build and sell cows when they enter the game; without much hassle, so supply is picking up. I doubt that this has anything to do with the production price; because unlike the our markets in RL; Illy's market is not profit driven to that extent; it's more the fact that it's there and you can trade on it; so why not?

The reason newbies build and sell cows is because it is the most profitable for the material expenditure and per unit (with a limit to how many units you can put in a caravan, that's important).  Compare: Horses.  Horses cost more resources to build, and yet sell for 1/2 the price (well, until the cow prices tanked).  You say that the downward trend of cows is because newbies can build livestock right away, however they can build horses right away, and we don't see the market flooded with them.

The market might not be 'profit driven' for veterans who have billions in the bank, but for new and new(ish) players who only have a couple of million, it is.

You list 'swords' as being more profitable than cows.  That wasn't true until very recently.



Posted By: <Squill>
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 13:31

Well now; cows are used in the production of saddles and leather amour. In fact: around double the amount of cows are traded on the market compared to horses. Now their price is determined by their demand.

Of course buying siege blocks is an example; they are extremely expensive to build; and selling them does not make any profit. So the majority of siege blocks sold on the market; are there because they could be sold. (Their price is determined by demand; which in turn is determined by how people are busy sieging, which no one is doing )   

Vets are the chief buyers of these product; - cows included. The wealth they are able to generate from tax is used to purchase these goods. So in essence the market is driven because of their demand...

Agreed; the guide will be updated in time. 



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Posted By: Cuddlefuzz
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 15:59
Originally posted by Koragg Koragg wrote:

The market might not be 'profit driven' for veterans who have billions in the bank, but for new and new(ish) players who only have a couple of million, it is.


A bigger issue is that gold gained from the market is generally only used again on the market.  In effect, it doesn't really circulate.  The prime utility of gold is to pay for troops (soldiers/diplos), and if anyone has a long-term strategy of running a deficit and using the market to generate payroll I'd be surprised.  To wit: the vets are buying, not selling, so they in general must be running a gold surplus.

I would be curious to know how much gold is in circulation in total from day to day.  It would be nice to know how much inflation/deflation the economy experiences.  I assume the devs keep a tight eye on this, as wild inflation or deflation can severely impact game mechanics.

Unless offsetting a gold deficit with trade is a widely used tactic, the total amount of gold in the game, as well as per capita, should be increasing.  Since deflationary pressures are not likely to be as strong in the game as in a real economy -- we are not likely to see a drop in supply, wages are non-negotiable, and conflict is the only real factor affecting demand -- I expect we'll see steady inflation.  This isn't a problem unless the inflation rate is volatile.

So currently, the market isn't driven at all.  If it's a given that players tend to run gold surpluses over the course of the game, nobody needs long-term the gold the market provides, and the goods have a much higher utility value.  Gold is technically only good for converting one resource into another, which can be done more efficiently (though less easily) through direct barter.  I'd guess that right now, the market is driven by curiosity, speculation, and a hoarding desire.

I can think of one simple change that could encourage a gold-deficit playstyle, and that would be scheduling of trade orders.  If I could queue a sell order for x number of books or swords or leather every y hours (as long as I have them), I could reliably maintain an overall positive cash flow.  I wonder if this is something the devs are considering for trade 2.0.

I'm not an economist, it would be interesting if any forum members were and could provide some insight.


Posted By: <Squill>
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 16:41

I like this Cuddlefuzz; it was constructive rather than overly argumentative for no reason. A good post +1. :D

The vets "might" be running a gold surplus largely because of tax revenue they get from there cities. However; generally over a period of time many of them build troops in preparation for battle/war/tournaments. In which they go through a stage at the bigging whereby they have a lot of gold flowing until most of the gold revenue is consumed by units they have built and they go into deficit.

Generally the tournaments are a way to relieve inflation; where troop and gold reserves are spent in huge amounts.    



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Posted By: Cuddlefuzz
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 17:23
Originally posted by <Squill> <Squill> wrote:

The vets "might" be running a gold surplus largely because of tax revenue they get from there cities. However; generally over a period of time many of them build troops in preparation for battle/war/tournaments. In which they go through a stage at the bigging whereby they have a lot of gold flowing until most of the gold revenue is consumed by units they have built and they go into deficit.


Right.  So the primary motivator for large players is to hoard gold in anticipation of converting it to resources and to temporarily pay for offensive armies (who supposedly will suffer losses, so any deficit will be short-term).  The primary motivator for smaller players to trade goods for gold is...?  An expectation of needing it when they are large?  Or simply to easily convert certain resources to others?  But we've established that the large players don't need to sell goods to accumulate the gold to buy the goods they will need (which would be self-defeating anyway, unless they're speculating/playing the market, or again converting from one resource to another though this would be inefficient).  Why are smaller players interested in earning gold via the market?  I suspect it may be more psychological than anything else (the satisfaction of seeing a number get really big).

Quote Generally the tournaments are a way to relieve inflation; where troop and gold reserves are spent in huge amounts.

Ah, I forgot about the tournaments!  Yes, they are the pressure valve, good point.

I have a good friend who has some odd ideas about economics so I have given myself the briefest and shallowest of educations.  The economic simulations in games like Illy are really fascinating, though they lack some very crucial components of real-world systems.  Glad you enjoyed my thoughts.  I'm a subscriber to Keyensian economics and Illy's system does, to me, show a clear demand-side market.



Posted By: <Squill>
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 18:47
  The game obliviously gives you limited things to do; one of which is trading of course. So generally players will take part in it.  Also new members do themselves require gold to a certain degree; especially of they are using prestige to upgrade faster ( they would need a large amount of resources that could be bought ). Yes; there is of course the hording factor that does exist; large numbers are great :)    

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Posted By: Cuddlefuzz
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 19:24
Originally posted by <Squill> <Squill> wrote:

Also new members do themselves require gold to a certain degree; especially of they are using prestige to upgrade faster ( they would need a large amount of resources that could be bought ).


That's possible.  Then it follows, are the established players selling the basic resources to the younger players?  In effect, the system is simply bartering basic for advanced and vice-versa?


Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 19:29
Things are changing with that situation too new tier II buildings need basic resources so big players will need more of them also. Also with the new buildings some players might stop producing some advanced resources and buying them instead to get more places for other structures.   


Posted By: Parker
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 20:16
On the new player part, for example why do I trade?
1st, I have come from a game driven by economics (eve) and as much as in real life, there as well if you had tons of money, your possibilities and freedom of gameplay was much bigger than those who had less.
As a new player, with small or no tax incomes, money can be a factor when you start building an army. 
Obviously, spending your resources for gold would slow your development down, but in my case that isn't really a factor, since i use gold to make more gold, i personally dont sell a single resource on the market that i have made in my small town.
Ofc i have no experience whatsoever about the life of veterans with 6-7 cities, 100k+ pop etc, but for now, gold is a factor as a beginner. It can and it does make my life easier.


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 22:44
Parker,

Gold takes time to accumulate.  Sometimes new players are given gold.  The marketplace is not new player friendly.  To buy basic resources requires gold which, as noted, is in short supply for the new player.  Most of the basic resource sell orders are too large for a new player to afford or even handle in their smaller storehouses.   Travel distances and limited number of caravans also hinder the new player in using the marketplace.

A new player can not reasonably expect to sell basic resources for gold.  Even at a marketplace supporting 30 vans at 1K capacity each, the biggest shipment of basics is just 30K. And that ties up all your caravans for who knows how long.


Posted By: Parker
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2011 at 23:24
By spending resources i meant making advanced resources and then sell them on the market. This is what new players shouldnt and i dont do as well, since basic resources are more important than money per se.
But, with trading (and by trading i mean you buy something with a buy order and sell it with a sell order) you can make money without using up a single resource. Ofc I'm talking about advanced resources. Even if you start with a few pieces, 10,100, doesnt matter, you can make profit. 

I recieved 400k gold altogether from gift caravans which made this way easier than it should have been without a single gold gift. 
by now i reached a point where i can buy from the market whatever i need for a while if i want it (adv resources for troop production etc) and i can save my basic resources for continous building, moreover, buy more if im depleted a bit.


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2011 at 03:31
Our work among the earliest market-makers in the revised trade system are successful.
Go forth and prosper.
Enjoy.Hug



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