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26AUG11 - New Art, Google Checkout, Relocate

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: News & Announcements
Forum Name: Announcements
Forum Description: Changes, patch release dates, server launch dates, downtime notifications etc.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=2302
Printed Date: 21 Sep 2019 at 14:14
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 26AUG11 - New Art, Google Checkout, Relocate
Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Subject: 26AUG11 - New Art, Google Checkout, Relocate
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 18:55
NEW AVATAR ART
The Illyriad art team has updated the player avatars and they are to a more consistent house style:

       


SEIGING PLAYER MULTI-TOWN, AUTO ABANDON
When sieging a player that had multiple cities, the abandon account system occasionally removed their cities from the map before the end of the siege. This has now been fixed.

DAILY PRESTIGE BONUS
Not all players seemed to realise they could claim free prestige every day. To remind players and to make it easier to claim we have also added the link to the buy prestige, about prestige and spend prestige pages as well as the herald front page.

BUY WITH MOBILE
Re-enabled for Chrome, Safari and Mobile devices

GOOGLE CHECKOUT
As an alternative to PayPal we have also added Google checkout. (Although this is not available to Facebook players)

RELOCATE CITY (SPELL)
A mini-map featuring the map tiles has been added to the relocate city page; and the coodinates have had the regions added. This should help with moving cities in future.


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Replies:
Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:01
i kinda liked my old helmet and my fierce beard...
but nice broadsword....kudos


Posted By: larnalee
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:05
I just raised a petition. I am NOT happy with the new elf picture. Please allow me to appear fully dressed or no picture at all even would be preferable.  Thank you

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Nurture and Protect


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:08
Absolutely nice artwork! I love seeing myself on the front page with that elven duddette! Tongue


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:17
Originally posted by larnalee larnalee wrote:

I just raised a petition. I am NOT happy with the new elf picture. Please allow me to appear fully dressed or no picture at all even would be preferable.  Thank you



boooo
boooo

and what shall i say? hu? have you taken a look at me?



Posted By: larnalee
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:24
LOL Kilotov.   I've no idea which picture is urs but at least u are fully clothed :P 

I wish they'd give us the option to replace the profile pics with our own... a lot of us have pics posted on our profiles anyway.. Would be great to use that. 


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Nurture and Protect


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:33
 everyone has a reason to pray! Ying Yang

Originally posted by Anderrent the Apple Lord Anderrent the Apple Lord wrote:

I look like a pervert with a sore eye. Please allow me to appear sophisticated or no picture at all even would be preferable.  Thank you

Originally posted by Deterrent the Dark Orc Deterrent the Dark Orc wrote:

I just look plain squishy and ugly. Please allow me to appear cuddly and cutie or no picture at all even would be preferable.  Thank you

Originally posted by Mutterrent the Dwarf Lord Mutterrent the Dwarf Lord wrote:

I am not visible. Please allow me to appear.  Thank you


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:40
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

 everyone has a reason to pray! Ying Yang

Originally posted by Anderrent the Apple Lord Anderrent the Apple Lord wrote:

I look like a pervert with a sore eye. Please allow me to appear sophisticated or no picture at all even would be preferable.  Thank you

Originally posted by Deterrent the Dark Orc Deterrent the Dark Orc wrote:

I just look plain squishy and ugly. Please allow me to appear cuddly and cutie or no picture at all even would be preferable.  Thank you

Originally posted by Mutterrent the Dwarf Lord Mutterrent the Dwarf Lord wrote:

I am not visible. Please allow me to appear.  Thank you



well ill be damned,  this is genius


Posted By: dhoni007
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:50
I liked the elf woman icon.. 


Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:56
I think they are all great improvements to the previous profile pics.

Kudos to the artist!


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 19:57
The female elf pic does a little bit scream "To eviscerate me, start here."  But I guess it's just a sign that female elves are nimble enough to dodge rapacious pikemen ... and rapacious anything else, for that matter.

Can't catch me!

Looks like a lot of work went into these pics, congratulations to the artists!!!


Posted By: Sheogorath
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 20:47
Elves look the same size as Dwarves lol. Artwork is still great though :D

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=Colonialism At Its Finest=


Posted By: Celebcalen
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 21:31
Originally posted by larnalee larnalee wrote:

LOL Kilotov.   I've no idea which picture is urs but at least u are fully clothed :P 

I wish they'd give us the option to replace the profile pics with our own... a lot of us have pics posted on our profiles anyway.. Would be great to use that. 


Well I am putting in a petition to keep Kilotov fully clothed. Most Definitely


Posted By: Hugie
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 21:57
All kudos to the artists, but they are a little sexist.
1) all dwarves have beards (both male and female)
2) if it's cold enough for a male elf to wear furs, shouldn't the female elf? I mean in Newcastle upon Tyne, both women and men wear next to nothing in mid-winter.  

Still, fantastic art!  Would be even better if we could choose to overwrite with our own artwork, change colours, etc - not that I'm artist enough to change mine but some are (see avatars in discussion forum identities)


Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 22:00
Originally posted by larnalee larnalee wrote:

I just raised a petition. I am NOT happy with the new elf picture. Please allow me to appear fully dressed or no picture at all even would be preferable.  Thank you


LOL....

you have a point though.

unfortunately my seers have predicted a large increase  in the female elven population over the coming months.

would be interesting to see figures on whether there is a change.
(is that possible devs?)


Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 22:03
........waiting for the elven female only alliance to form.

run solely by spotty teenage boys.


Posted By: Sheogorath
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 22:26
Some of you guys are making too big of a deal about the Female elf picture, ooooooo its showing some skin, big deal its not that bad


Maybe its just because I'm not Female, its just my opinion


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=Colonialism At Its Finest=


Posted By: Selissa
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 22:50
Originally posted by Sheogorath Sheogorath wrote:

Some of you guys are making too big of a deal about the Female elf picture, ooooooo its showing some skin, big deal its not that bad


Maybe its just because I'm not Female, its just my opinion
Well, I'm female and I personally don't mind at all. I think it's far better than the picture where we looked constipated! :)

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Selissa
Proud member of Curse of the Wolves

I'm an angel, honest! The horns are just there to keep the halo straight!


Posted By: Sheogorath
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 23:10
lolz

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=Colonialism At Its Finest=


Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 23:11
Originally posted by Selissa Selissa wrote:

Originally posted by Sheogorath Sheogorath wrote:

Some of you guys are making too big of a deal about the Female elf picture, ooooooo its showing some skin, big deal its not that bad


Maybe its just because I'm not Female, its just my opinion
Well, I'm female and I personally don't mind at all. I think it's far better than the picture where we looked constipated! :)


I am not female and do agree its much better than the last female elf.

However, I can understand why some female players would not be happy with their avatar looking like some skinny weak armoured pole dancer.

Think there should be some option open to them in this regard.


Posted By: Neytiri
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 23:17
I really don't mind my new teenage body, and I think you have a very talented artist working with you...  Seriously... like, "Boris" is feeling jealous about now.

The fashion choice, however, is criminal.  Ouch!
It's not the skant... really.  It's just that some of us are more sensitive to what we wear when we leave the house in the morning.

Somewhere there is an elven Jimmy Choo who is puking all over those boots.  And shoulder pads?  C'mon, am I the co-star of LA Law?  Or the lead singer from the Hotels?  I don't think even Lady Gaga would sport that bra, either.

So, keep the artist!  He's great.
Find a fashion consultant, though....
(chuck chuck!)


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 00:02
Though the quality of art is improved the choice of weapon per character is a little curious. Human male with Axe compared to a Dwarven male with a sword? Both Eleven characters Bow-less?

(Who cares about the Orcs as we all know Orcs aren't real).


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"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 00:06
There was a big discussion when the female elf showed up on the login screen, and some valid points were raised but in the end it was at least something impersonal.  Now these images are being forced onto players' personal in-game identities.  The old generic/cartoony images hadn't enough personality to offend.  This is a whole other can of worms, and players should at least be able to opt out of having these avatars on their profile.  Far better would be to make them opt-in features with the game-provided graphics being merely a default option--maybe with the old versions still available as well.  I rather liked my old elf male.

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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule


Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 00:12
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

There was a big discussion when the female elf showed up on the login screen, and some valid points were raised but in the end it was at least something impersonal.  Now these images are being forced onto players' personal in-game identities.  The old generic/cartoony images hadn't enough personality to offend.  This is a whole other can of worms, and players should at least be able to opt out of having these avatars on their profile.  Far better would be to make them opt-in features with the game-provided graphics being merely a default option--maybe with the old versions still available as well.  I rather liked my old elf male.


A*

Damn..... am I giving HM credit???   Damn, yeah I guess so.

Wink HM



Posted By: fluffy
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 00:42
+1 to HM

I miss my axe!


Posted By: Albatross
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 00:47
To most people (I include myself here), the new images won't make much difference to how they feel about the game. Some will love the images, but some will not like them, some will be offended on behalf of a demographic, and a few will actually be offended themselves. However, they give the game 'marketing candy' to attract new players who see screenshots.

So although I don't see the direct benefit of having cash spent on contracting this artwork, I do appreciate that it's necessary to draw new players in, to generate more capital via the increase in Prestige purchases. It's especially important because games in this genre(-ish) are big-money cash cows with huge creative investment - they set a standard that we are compared against.


Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 00:57
Originally posted by Albatross Albatross wrote:

To most people (I include myself here), the new images won't make much difference to how they feel about the game. Some will love the images, but some will not like them, some will be offended on behalf of a demographic, and a few will actually be offended themselves. However, they give the game 'marketing candy' to attract new players who see screenshots.

So although I don't see the direct benefit of having cash spent on contracting this artwork, I do appreciate that it's necessary to draw new players in, to generate more capital via the increase in Prestige purchases. It's especially important because games in this genre(-ish) are big-money cash cows with huge creative investment - they set a standard that we are compared against.


Dont think anyone is saying to get rid of them.   Just provide an alternative for those that dont want them.

I will be keeping both of mine, even with a choice.


Posted By: Qaal
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 03:55
I think some aspects of the new art are pretty solid. The new dwarf female is pretty awesome. Gone from the old nondescript dwarf woman to saying, "Kiss those kneecaps goodbye, slightman. It's choppin' time." All those toughs free up us dwarf males to throw our Zeus vibe, which is tolerable sheik. Though I do miss the old dwarf male giving his propers to the heavens.

But some of the new art has definitely gone one dimensional. The old orcs had a bit of a conniving flavor, which I really liked. The new seem flatter, more cashed in for the standard big, green, and mean trip. Done, and overdone. And a stripper elf...seriously? Nothing wrong with sexy, but in the immortal words of Inspector Clouseau, "Now is not the time, Cato."

I think the folks suggesting that we have some choices are probably on to the best solution. It would add depth--conniving orcs could be conniving, and big-mean-green orcs could be big, mean, and green. And teenage boys could go with hot elf, while others go for a more sartorially sensible selection. And isn't that one of the main points about Illy--that it offers more depth than most MMORPG experiences?


Posted By: Qaal
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 04:11
Although, upon further review of the dwarf male, it does look like we scalped Ron Wood to make our cloak. Someone please apologize to Mr. Wood and let him know that we will return his hair forthwith.


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 04:51
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

There was a big discussion when the female elf showed up on the login screen, and some valid points were raised but in the end it was at least something impersonal.  Now these images are being forced onto players' personal in-game identities.  The old generic/cartoony images hadn't enough personality to offend.  This is a whole other can of worms, and players should at least be able to opt out of having these avatars on their profile.  Far better would be to make them opt-in features with the game-provided graphics being merely a default option--maybe with the old versions still available as well.  I rather liked my old elf male.


you amuse me to no end.

all this fuss about skin makes me LOL


Posted By: Mara Zira
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 05:05
I love the new picture for human females! It's great to be a human gal. Big smile

Orcs are scary now....


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 07:54
One cannot really call the pictures "personal" since the picture as such is not picked up by choice. If there is an option to choose from multiple avatars it will be good, but I don't think it is fair to complain now that your "personal picture" has got this problem or that "you appear" scantily clad.

you can add a note in your profile page that the portrait hanging on your left is just a stereotype and not the real elf that is you!


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 09:26
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

One cannot really call the pictures "personal" since the picture as such is not picked up by choice. If there is an option to choose from multiple avatars it will be good, but I don't think it is fair to complain now that your "personal picture" has got this problem or that "you appear" scantily clad.

you can add a note in your profile page that the portrait hanging on your left is just a stereotype and not the real elf that is you!


If you are a female elf you WILL get inappropriate emails from hormonal young boys and overly friendly emails from older men.  The fact that your profile picture wasn't your own choice won't factor into this much.

There are about 70k accounts, which probably means somewhere around 45,000 actual players.  It doesn't take a high concentration of idiots in a sample that large to end up bothered by some.


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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule


Posted By: Aneirin
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 11:34
All the new Avatar art images are an improvement on the old. Congratz to the artist. Viewing them - I can't help but think that the Devs team slipped in a few indulgences.
 
I am "old skool" and I think the pose and style of clothing of the elven female is not appropriate for a game such as Illyriad. I can understand why Larnalee is sending a petition about  this and urge others to support her.  Personally I think image can be seen to pander to chauvanism and sexual stereotyping
 
I think HonoredMule's point concerning this image and the statistical possibility of inappropriate emails is one which is valid .
 
I also think he HonoredMule hits on a solution. If it were me I would remove the image and replace it but The Mule's earlier point about "preventing control"  and allowing players to choose the type of image they would prefer has swayed me.
 
However I do not think that the choice should be  between the old and new images. I suggest that you commission the artist to present another 8 alternative character images, which, when finalised will allow the newcomer to choose their gender; their race and then the final two options   


Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 11:58
I think that this is an incredible lot of bother to be having over an image.

City specialisation!


Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 12:56
personalized avatars would be +1 awesome and fix the concerns mentioned above.


Posted By: Ryuuku
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 18:28
When I logged in to my alt acct that is an elven female, I felt very, very unhappy that this was chosen for us, especially after the original thread about how inappropriate every thing about the art direction for that artwork was. The quality of the image is better than average (I do have some issues about the awkwardness of the posed head vs the body), but the attire is beyond absurd, and the whole concept is stereotypically sexist.

My son can testify to my howls of protest upon login, and he is right with me on how horrific bikini armor is.


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 18:34
Originally posted by Ryuuku Ryuuku wrote:

When I logged in to my alt acct that is an elven female, I felt very, very unhappy that this was chosen for us, especially after the original thread about how inappropriate every thing about the art direction for that artwork was. The quality of the image is better than average (I do have some issues about the awkwardness of the posed head vs the body), but the attire is beyond absurd, and the whole concept is stereotypically sexist.

My son can testify to my howls of protest upon login, and he is right with me on how horrific bikini armor is.


now now...
its nice and fine.
she got shoulder guards, her belly button is showing, she is an immortal beauty.
what do you wish more?
 


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 18:58
Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

I think that this is an incredible lot of bother to be having over an image.


+1


Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 19:46
I just got to say it, I hate the new male dwarf picture. Its just not right

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�I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien


Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 21:17
The dwarf gets no axe? really?

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�I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 21:25
I find it interesting that none of the devs has addressed the sexist elf picture...You'd think they would have at the very least voiced their opinion on the matter...

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Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 21:35
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

I find it interesting that none of the devs has addressed the sexist elf picture...You'd think they would have at the very least voiced their opinion on the matter...



Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:



now now...
its nice and fine.
she got shoulder guards, her belly button is showing, she is an immortal beauty.
what do you wish more?
 



Posted By: surferdude
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 21:55
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

I find it interesting that none of the devs has addressed the sexist elf picture...You'd think they would have at the very least voiced their opinion on the matter...
I'd assume she is one of the http://www.illyriad.co.uk/Codex/Faction/81" rel="nofollow - Lyrian elves from western Lan Larosh; which bordering both the jungles and the desert of Kumala must be pretty hot and ideal for tanning.

Surely heavily armoured troops would be at a massive disadvantage in the leafy canopies of Lan Larosh?


Posted By: surferdude
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 22:09
Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

I find it interesting that none of the devs has addressed the sexist elf picture...You'd think they would have at the very least voiced their opinion on the matter...
I'd assume she is one of the http://www.illyriad.co.uk/Codex/Faction/81" rel="nofollow - Lyrian elves from western Lan Larosh; which bordering both the jungles and the desert of Kumala must be pretty hot and ideal for tanning.

Surely heavily armoured troops would be at a massive disadvantage in the leafy canopies of Lan Larosh?
Saying that, I did lement when the Olympics made Beach Volleyball one of the offical sports...


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 22:14
Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

I find it interesting that none of the devs has addressed the sexist elf picture...You'd think they would have at the very least voiced their opinion on the matter...
I'd assume she is one of the http://www.illyriad.co.uk/Codex/Faction/81" rel="nofollow - Lyrian elves from western Lan Larosh; which bordering both the jungles and the desert of Kumala must be pretty hot and ideal for tanning.

Surely heavily armoured troops would be at a massive disadvantage in the leafy canopies of Lan Larosh?
Saying that, I did lement when the Olympics made Beach Volleyball one of the offical sports...


well ...nets on a beach and no fish in sight... i to found it weird.


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 00:13
Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

Surely heavily armoured troops would be at a massive disadvantage in the leafy canopies of Lan Larosh?


Uh huh. So why isn't the male elf shirtless as well?

Also to those who haven't see this it relates to the topic. (funny that I posted it and then shortly after this comes up)

http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/homepage_topic2283.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/homepage_topic2283.html


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Posted By: Ryuuku
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 00:58
Awesome video at that link. Really highlights the STEREOTYPE part. Female bikini armor really is a tired, boring, old trope and finding a couple examples of male undress doesn't make it equitable in a game that has none of that in it. Way to let us women know that we are not worth any marketing emphasis.


Posted By: surferdude
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 01:56
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

Surely heavily armoured troops would be at a massive disadvantage in the leafy canopies of Lan Larosh?
Uh huh. So why isn't the male elf shirtless as well?

Well the male elf seems to have a fur lined cape so I'd assume, even though he's are not heavily armored, he's from further north?
Originally posted by Ryuuku Ryuuku wrote:

Awesome video at that link. Really highlights the STEREOTYPE part. Female bikini armor really is a tired, boring, old trope and finding a couple examples of male undress doesn't make it equitable in a game that has none of that in it. Way to let us women know that we are not worth any marketing emphasis.
Isn't not like the female human and dwarf aren't wearing armor. (Not sure what either of the orcs are wearing)



Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 01:59
Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

  (Not sure what either of the orcs are wearing)




a rag cut to pieces and and slabs of rotting leather.


Posted By: surferdude
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 02:03
Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:

Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

  (Not sure what either of the orcs are wearing)

a rag cut to pieces and and slabs of rotting leather.

Sounds like a terrible orc sterotype! I know many cultured orcs


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 02:07
Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:

Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

  (Not sure what either of the orcs are wearing)

a rag cut to pieces and and slabs of rotting leather.

Sounds like a terrible orc sterotype! I know many cultured orcs


horrible, horrible indeed...
yet for how acculturated an orc may be, his sense of fashion will always be leaking.


Posted By: nvp33
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 02:58
Well I actually don't like the looks of the orc, and it's not because I want them "prettier" but it's hard to look at the artwork on the orcs and feel sattisfied in any way when there is so much great orc artwork to see in Warhammer, AD&D, various fantasy novels, and so on.
It's not that I think that the orcs are ugly, it's that I think the artworks is bad. (sorry artist whomever you are)


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 03:23
Originally posted by surferdude surferdude wrote:

Well the male elf seems to have a fur lined cape so I'd assume, even though he's are not heavily armored, he's from further north?


Sounds like you're just trying to justify the sexist elf picture to me.


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Posted By: Dhenna
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 04:13

Seriously, guys, come ON! It's a DRAWING, it's fantasy! Jeebus the howls and accusations of sexism here.

Now, I'm female in real life, and I do not feel offended in any way whatsoever by these new avatars. In fact, I like them ALL very much better than the old ones. Who'd want to have an anorectic (no offense meant towards anorectic people!) looking teenager in a night gown? Seriously, enjoy the beautiful art work and stop yelling all kinds of accusations. Just enjoy having something beautiful to look at instead of the old ugly ones.
 
My 2 gold pieces.


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 05:15
Some people not being offended does not invalidate others being so.


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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 10:57
so be offended.
i don't really care.


edit...well indeed.
its just that it makes me kinda sad to see all this over reaction for a bit of naked skin..
we are in the 21th century and people still get offended by this...open yer mind ppl...
and its kinda sad for the artist to....




Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 16:09
Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:

so be offended.
i don't really care.


If you didn't care, you wouldn't have replied. Not sure why you think you need to announce it though.


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Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 18:17
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Some people not being offended does not invalidate others being so.


Some people being offended doesn't validate it as offensive.


-------------
"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 18:20
Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Some people not being offended does not invalidate others being so.


Some people being offended doesn't validate it as offensive.


+1


Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 18:22
Anyone get the feeling that this discussion should just move to "game suggestions" forum and be left for the devs discretion? I think every angle has been more or less covered at this point.

Cheers!


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 21:33
Is it me or are the people saying "it's not offensive, I like the half naked elf look" just arguing for the very sake of arguing? 

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Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 21:38
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Is it me or are the people saying "it's not offensive, I like the half naked elf look" just arguing for the very sake of arguing? 


well i think its the other way around...
how can you be offended by it?
look outside the window...
there are half naked, if not straight naked girls on every 2nd promotion for products and stuff..
the age were people where shocked by some skin is long since dead.


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 22:14
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Is it me or are the people saying "it's not offensive, I like the half naked elf look" just arguing for the very sake of arguing? 


Not at all. I'm wary of excessive political correctness.


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"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 22:18
Kilo, there are unfortunately some players of online games who think that women are volunteering to be sexually harassed just by playing this sort of game.  Having a picture that is sexually provocative just reinforces that delusion.

I am grateful that Illy is for the most part not like that.  However, we do have occasional episodes of people being really inappropriate, and I think it's reasonable for women to want to have a choice to opt out of anything that might tend to increase that sort of behavior.


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 22:28
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I think it's reasonable for women to want to have a choice to opt out of anything that might tend to increase that sort of behavior.


+1

I don't see why avatars cannot be left to the players personal prerogative such as one's profile.


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"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 22:58
Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:

there are half naked, if not straight naked girls on every 2nd promotion for products and stuff..


Just because something wrong happens all the time does not make it suddenly ok. Putting half naked women in advertisements is not only a cheap way of making a sale it also indirectly suggests that women are sexual objects and are only valuable or attractive if they're naked. The fact that the GMs seemingly support this sexist and degrading view on women is disappointing to say the least. So it has nothing to do with me being offended by an elf showing skin. I'm offended because they're sexually objectifying women in order to bring in customers.


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Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 23:07
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:

there are half naked, if not straight naked girls on every 2nd promotion for products and stuff..


Just because something wrong happens all the time does not make it suddenly ok. Putting half naked women in advertisements is not only a cheap way of making a sale it also indirectly suggests that women are sexual objects and are only valuable or attractive if they're naked. The fact that the GMs seemingly support this sexist and degrading view on women is disappointing to say the least. So it has nothing to do with me being offended by an elf showing skin. I'm offended because they're sexually objectifying women in order to bring in customers.


 its wrong in your opinion.
i do not try to force my own opinion on others.
i am open and tolerant to everything.
what i cant tolerate is intolerance.
naked skin, cloths..same thing for me.
btw sex is a part of life. deny it holds no propose.
even talking about sex or sexual symbolism is al right in ma opinion.
and its not like the elven picture is spreading her legs or bowing at 90 degrees ...


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 23:27
Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:

its wrong in your opinion.
i do not try to force my own opinion on others.
i am open and tolerant to everything.
what i cant tolerate is intolerance.
naked skin, cloths..same thing for me.
btw sex is a part of life. deny it holds no propose.
even talking about sex or sexual symbolism is al right in ma opinion.
and its not like the elven picture is spreading her legs or bowing at 90 degrees ...


*shakes head* You're misunderstanding my point. It has nothing to do with how provocative the picture is, it's that they're sexually objectifying women and indirectly telling women that their only worth is as a sexual object.


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Posted By: Leungarific
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 03:51
Make it fair!
(Examples - (Yes, this is for you fangirls)



Edit: Also -
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/drowelf72.jpg/" rel="nofollow">



Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 08:08
Originally posted by Kilotov of DokGthung Kilotov of DokGthung wrote:



 its wrong in your opinion.
i do not try to force my own opinion on others.
i am open and tolerant to everything.
what i cant tolerate is intolerance.
naked skin, cloths..same thing for me.
btw sex is a part of life. deny it holds no propose.
even talking about sex or sexual symbolism is al right in ma opinion.
and its not like the elven picture is spreading her legs or bowing at 90 degrees ...


You have either failed to grasp our point completely, or you are arguing for arguments sake.

you claim 'i am open and tolerant to everything', then why are you not tolerant to the idea of people being given choice, or the right to self determination.

No-one is saying that this picture should be banned due to its provocative nature (personnaly I do not find it provocative at all), we are just saying that those people who have chosen to play female elf characters should be allowed to choose if their character is pictured in such a way.

One of my accounts is a female elf and I would not change this for the original image, but then I am not a girl, so would find it extremely funny and rather pathetic if some desperate idiot tried to chat me up through this game, as I am male, in my 30s and have a big beard, prob not what they would be hoping for.


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 09:36
well i probably missed the point.
anyway,
shees... the pictures, even the dwarf one are al right in ma opinion..
and what i said, i still think that.
even if there are some idiots that are ... well just plain stupid to try to "look cool" whit provocative/ harassing messages...  those kind of people are to be ignored...
who the heck is so damn messed up to try to seduce a Online game player that can weary well be on the other side of the earth globe? lol


Posted By: Leungarific
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 10:15
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cpb.2007.0020" rel="nofollow - This entire study is somewhat "TL;DR", but the gist is well-conveyed.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/10/27/the-daily-grind-are-you-upset-with-how-mmos-handle-women/" rel="nofollow - A debate on Massively ... Just so we avoid stating the same points again and ... again.
And to address your last point, Kilo - http://thehathorlegacy.com/sexual-harassment-for-female-players-in-starcraft2-thread/" rel="nofollow - E.g. 1 , http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/mar/06/women.games" rel="nofollow - E.g. 2 .



Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 10:32
Originally posted by Leungarific Leungarific wrote:

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cpb.2007.0020" rel="nofollow - This entire study is somewhat "TL;DR", but the gist is well-conveyed.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/10/27/the-daily-grind-are-you-upset-with-how-mmos-handle-women/" rel="nofollow - A debate on Massively ... Just so we avoid stating the same points again and ... again.
And to address your last point, Kilo - http://thehathorlegacy.com/sexual-harassment-for-female-players-in-starcraft2-thread/" rel="nofollow - E.g. 1 , http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/mar/06/women.games" rel="nofollow - E.g. 2 .



now now... i have to say this..
i may be a weirdo and a pot head...
but those people over there are just plain NUTS....
this community is more mature and i think it can deal a bit of naked skin in the belly button area...
if not i may lose all faith is still have for mankind.. and  dont have much, i tell you..


Posted By: MisterNo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 11:46
Look at this wiew from human's profile image.
Sharp and rigorius.
You can cut watermelon with it

Wink


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 18:45
Quote this community is more mature and i think it can deal a bit of naked skin in the belly button area...


I smell an oxymoron.  What aspect of maturity encourages such staunch defense of forced association with puerile attractions?


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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 18:51
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Quote this community is more mature and i think it can deal a bit of naked skin in the belly button area...


I smell an oxymoron.  What aspect of maturity encourages such staunch defense of forced association with puerile attractions?


Not an oxymoron at all.

The maturity Kil refers to is not a 'staunch defense of forced association with puerile attractions' rather a maturity to not let it bother one.

I don't personally defend puerile attractions but nor does a cartoon exposed midriff overly concern me.


-------------
"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 19:27
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Quote this community is more mature and i think it can deal a bit of naked skin in the belly button area...


I smell an oxymoron.  What aspect of maturity encourages such staunch defense of forced association with puerile attractions?


that is kinda rude. Confused
what i mean has nothing to do whit puerile attractions.
its about tolerance.
does that picture really hurt your eyes so much you would erase it?
and what is wrong whit the fine beauty of an artistic picture that expose a little part of feminine graces?
i feel like i am arguing whit some kind of pastor or moral guardian ...
 


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 19:55
I don't think anyone is arguing to erase the picture.  We're just asking for the choice to not have it shown as a representation on our profile.


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 20:32
The "pro-midriff" crowd is doing a very good job of marginalizing the realism and extent of exposure in the picture.  You're doing an even better job of willfully ignoring the actual point of contention.  If I don't want to see these graphics, I don't.  If it bothers me that much, I add a filter to Adblock+ and never see it again--that's the power of an open internet viewed by browsers that serve their users' interests.  My rights and sensibilities don't have to be dictated by yours or that of the services I use.

But if I'm a female Elf and don't want to show other people that image as a representation of myself, tough luck.  That's patently backwards and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you find it offensive or inappropriate.  I can't even change my gender to avoid this involuntary self-expression, and yes, proclaiming that no one should find a roughly 12% clothed woman offensive is willfully ignoring the sexual objectification inherent to such imagery.

The developers themselves disallow swearing in global chat.  Where's the "tolerance" there?  This has nothing to do with tolerance, because people want to tolerate the picture.  But there's nothing tolerant about enforcing your "tolerance" onto other people's personal identities.

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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 20:33
Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

The maturity Kil refers to is not a 'staunch defense of forced association with puerile attractions' rather a maturity to not let it bother one.


To be fair, I don't think Kil understand *why* the image is offensive and as such, I don't think maturity is relevant here. As I stated, it isn't about how provocative the image is, it's that it's sexually objectifying, something that I don't think Kil understands.

Besides, I don't see how being ignorant to sexist imagery is mature.




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Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 20:34
swearing has nothing to do whit fine arts, mr. morale guardian.
 


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 20:36
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

The maturity Kil refers to is not a 'staunch defense of forced association with puerile attractions' rather a maturity to not let it bother one.


To be fair, I don't think Kil understand *why* the image is offensive and as such, I don't think maturity is relevant here. As I stated, it isn't about how provocative the image is, it's that it's sexually objectifying, something that I don't think Kil understands.

Besides, I don't see how being ignorant to sexist imagery is mature.




this is rude to.
of curse i understand.
you fear that people looking at it would consider it a sexual object, thus feeling legitimate to harass the welder of said avatar.
now stop try to look smart and actually read what i type.


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 20:43
Edited version below.


-------------
"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 20:44
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

The "pro-midriff" crowd is doing a very good job of marginalizing the realism and extent of exposure in the picture.  You're doing an even better job of willfully ignoring the actual point of contention.  If I don't want to see these graphics, I don't.  If it bothers me that much, I add a filter to Adblock+ and never see it again--that's the power of an open internet viewed by browsers that serve their users' interests.  My rights and sensibilities don't have to be dictated by yours or that of the services I use.

But if I'm a female Elf and don't want to show other people that image as a representation of myself, tough luck.  That's patently backwards and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you find it offensive or inappropriate.  I can't even change my gender to avoid this involuntary self-expression, and yes, proclaiming that no one should find a roughly 12% clothed woman offensive is willfully ignoring the sexual objectification inherent to such imagery.

The developers themselves disallow swearing in global chat.  Where's the "tolerance" there?  This has nothing to do with tolerance, because people want to tolerate the picture.  But there's nothing tolerant about enforcing your "tolerance" onto other people's personal identities.


In final clarification of my point.

I fully support the contention that players should be able to represent an avatar according to his/her choice/tolerance/belief/whatever

I was simply saying lets all get a little perspective.

I take offence when I request a little perspective (its a cartoon mid-drift) and Im accused of enforcing my view onto other people. Seriously?

And no I am not marginalizing any realism nor willfully ignoring the points of contention and I find it patronising that you suggest so. I find it ironic and hypocritical that the 'anti-midrift' crowd (Brids, HM), to adopt a bland generalization from HM, continually resort to direct or indirect insult in debate.


-------------
"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 21:01
Llyorn, that comment was not directed at yourself.  Nevertheless, I fail to see how your point of view has in any way been under-represented in this thread.  And I think there's a short in the logic system when the foremost counterargument is not a refutation of observations/rationale, but rather a call to "lighten up."

That's the "it's just a game" argument revisted, which does little besides dismissing the argument and by extension others' differing opinions.


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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 21:12
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Llyorn, that comment was not directed at yourself.  Nevertheless, I fail to see how your point of view has in any way been under-represented in this thread.  And I think there's a short in the logic system when the foremost counterargument is not a refutation of observations/rationale, but rather a call to "lighten up."

That's the "it's just a game" argument revisted, which does little besides dismissing the argument and by extension others' differing opinions.


Creating a realistic sense of perspective is by no means a short in logic. I would contend by its very nature itself logical. Perspective itself can refute 'rationale' and is not merely a call to 'lighten up'. And once again, no I am not dismissing the argument nor others opinions and again I find the insinuation patronizing.

I guess we're at logger heads and will agree to disagree.


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"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 21:13
Very well. Smile

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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule


Posted By: Leungarific
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 03:18
Then having a midriff being displayed on male elves is fair, too?
(Yes, I found this picture, including the facial expression to be utterly hilarious)



Posted By: Divine Redemption
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 05:48
I am not offended by any of the new pictures.  Women have always been viewed as pretty creatures.  Instead of bashing a look, women should be proud that they are able to seduce the opposite sex with their curves, eyes, hair, and movement.

The problem with a game such as this, is the fact it has been released all over the world where different countries and different cultures have access to it.  These differences in culture bring out different views on topics such as these. 

I always find it amazing no matter what the topic is at hand, there will always be a different view on things.

The fact of the matter is, not one person or game company will be able to make everyone happy.  I am pretty sure more than 50% of the people you will meet will end up not liking you no matter how much you try to be fake so you can fit in with them.

In all reality, I thought the old female dwarf picture was more offensive than the new elf picture. Let me ask a question. How many people here have been offended over an over weight lady walking in tight spandex? 

This game is a business and if this game feels the majority of the player base is offended over the elf picture, perhaps they will change the picture.  I for one hope the dev team will give the elf female a hooter t-shirt to wear.

I do however find the profile pictures annoying whenever I wanted to add my own pictures to it. Most of the time these pictures did not match the profile picture. 

I think an easy solution would be to add more than one choice for an elf female or a dwarf male picture wise.  Use prestige to change your profile picture to an elf picture with clothes on or an elf picture wearing a hooter's t-shirt.


Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 15:59
Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Llyorn, that comment was not directed at yourself.  Nevertheless, I fail to see how your point of view has in any way been under-represented in this thread.  And I think there's a short in the logic system when the foremost counterargument is not a refutation of observations/rationale, but rather a call to "lighten up."

That's the "it's just a game" argument revisted, which does little besides dismissing the argument and by extension others' differing opinions.


Creating a realistic sense of perspective is by no means a short in logic. I would contend by its very nature itself logical. Perspective itself can refute 'rationale' and is not merely a call to 'lighten up'. And once again, no I am not dismissing the argument nor others opinions and again I find the insinuation patronizing.

I guess we're at logger heads and will agree to disagree.


Llyorn I think that just as with Kil, you are caught arguing against a point which I dont think anyone has tried to make here.

No-one has called for the removal of this image, or any other form of censorship.  It is merely a case that a player has felt let down that this image (which she clearly felt was not suitable) has been forced onto her as a profile picture.

I beleive that any 'realistic perspective' would let any reasoned person see that a player should not have something like this changed about their own account, without some choice being available to them.  Many of us have spent along time and alot of effort building our accounts and I am sure you can appreciate that; if the devs enforced somekind of imagery onto yours that you felt was completely unsuitable to your character here, you would appreciate being able to change it, or simply have it removed from your own account.

We are not looking for a ban, or an excuse to victimise people that choose to hold on to the image in question, just that the player who was offended by it is allowed an alternative on her own profile.




Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 16:36
Darkwords:

Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

I fully support the contention that players should be able to represent an avatar according to his/her choice/tolerance/belief/whatever



-------------
"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule


Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 16:54
Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

Darkwords:

Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

I fully support the contention that players should be able to represent an avatar according to his/her choice/tolerance/belief/whatever



+1


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 17:11
Originally posted by Darkwords Darkwords wrote:

 
It is merely a case that a player has felt let down that this image (which she clearly felt was not suitable) has been forced onto her as a profile picture.

Talking of let downs, I am very much let down by the ugly orc pictures. I would have loved to see myself as a ferocious orc, but not an ugly one! The ugliness is thrust upon my profile without my consent. 

I am more offended by bare ugliness than bare skin. Does my concern get as much attention as that of the offended elven ladies?

It is alright to express your dislike for the new picture. But it is unfair to complain of sexual objectification. Or maybe just as fair as complaining of stereotyping because the orcs were made to look ugly.



Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 17:18
I think that this is a tempest in a teapot. I'm sure the devs didn't wish to offend anyone. Imo, they have always shown great sensitivity. I would be surprised if they don't give anyone who is offended an alternate option at some point, but does it warrant a 10 page threadnought? Let's focus our considerable energies on other, more important brainstorming of game improvements that can help the GMs make the game better.



Posted By: Faldrin
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 18:55
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

Let's focus our considerable energies on other, more important brainstorming of game improvements that can help the GMs make the game better.

+1 (after they have given the dwarven male a hammer or an axe Tongue)


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Posted By: Silent/Steadfast
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 19:04
For a peek into the minds of the GMs and their decision concerning the character art, look http://blog.illyriad.co.uk/index.php/2011/08/revising-the-character-art/" rel="nofollow - here .  It seems to me that the artist's idea was for the elfin girl to be attractive and otherworldly to her people, while the orc fearsome and the human motherly and strong.  Obviously, the "lewd image" was just a byproduct of this, and we should perceive the artwork as the artist wanted us to.

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"Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM)
"SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM)


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 19:19
Originally posted by Silent/Steadfast Silent/Steadfast wrote:

For a peek into the minds of the GMs and their decision concerning the character art, look http://blog.illyriad.co.uk/index.php/2011/08/revising-the-character-art/" rel="nofollow - here .  It seems to me that the artist's idea was for the elfin girl to be attractive and otherworldly to her people, while the orc fearsome and the human motherly and strong.  Obviously, the "lewd image" was just a byproduct of this, and we should perceive the artwork as the artist wanted us to.

totally! And thanks for the link! Smile


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 16:16
Quote And of course we had to have one athletic-warrior-supermodel type, and she swiftly became the Elf.


And so she had to be half (it's probably more than 50%) naked in order to do that? You can't make someone appear attractive or athletic without taking their clothes off? Once again, that's sexist.


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Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 16:59
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Quote And of course we had to have one athletic-warrior-supermodel type, and she swiftly became the Elf.


And so she had to be half (it's probably more than 50%) naked in order to do that? You can't make someone appear attractive or athletic without taking their clothes off? 

  yes attractive and athletic, but not the supermodel type! 



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