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13MAR11 - Early trade changes

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: News & Announcements
Forum Name: News & Announcements
Forum Description: Changes, patch release dates, server launch dates, downtime notifications etc.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=1635
Printed Date: 19 Mar 2024 at 06:03
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Topic: 13MAR11 - Early trade changes
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Subject: 13MAR11 - Early trade changes
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 23:02
CHANGES TO EXISTING TRADE SKILLS, CARAVAN SPEED & MAXIMUM NUMBERS PLUS 2x NEW SKILLS

What you can carry
There's a restriction placed on the types of goods you can carry from a town, based on skills researched.

This restriction says that - for example - your caravans can't carry Swords until you have a L10 marketplace and the Trading skill, and you can't carry Saddles until you have a L15 Marketplace and the Mercantilism skill.

We've never really liked that restriction - it's a bit too artificial and limiting.

How many caravans you can have

Whilst we've discussed it in the past, we are still undecided as to whether caravans should cost upkeep to maintain - largely due to the potentially depressive effect this may have on trade and economic interactions come the full implementation of Trade v2.

However, we're also well aware that Trade is currently hampered by the 40 caravan restriction per town.

Equally, we've never really liked the current "one caravan maximum per level of marketplace until you hit the Cartels skill and then you suddenly double this number" rule.

The changes
From this point onwards, if you have something you wish to carry, you can now carry it if you have a caravan available, and the related trade skills (Haggling, Bartering, Trading, Mercantilism) have now been repurposed to effect the number of caravans your marketplace can support.

The cartels skill remains available at Marketplace L17, but has become a raw number increase to the number of caravans, rather than a doubling.

The existing trade skills now provide the following benefits:
  • Haggling - Allows up to 5 caravans in your town
  • Bartering - Allows an additional 5 caravans in your town
  • Trading - Allows an additional 10 caravans in your town
  • Mercantilism - Allows an additional 10 caravans in your town
  • Cartels - Allows an additional 10 caravans in your town
So, as before, at this point with a Marketplace L20 you can have 40 caravans, and in fact get it slightly earlier with the Cartels skill available at Marketplace L17.

We have then added in two new skills - Commerce, and Enterprise - that now give additional caravan count increases.
  • Commerce - L18 Marketplace, allows an additional 15 caravans in your town
  • Enterprise - L20 Marketplace, allows an additional 15 caravans in your town
The maximum caravan count available per town is now 70 caravans.

The Caravanserai skill also performed a dual function - doubling carrying capacity and speed, which we never liked much either.  So this skill now only doubles carrying capacity, not speed.

Caravan speed is now directly related to your marketplace level.

Caravans move at a speed of 20 squares per hour +1 for each level of the Marketplace.

So a caravan at a L20 Marketplace continues to move at 40 squares per hour. There will be further abilities to increase this speed in the future.

Skill descriptions on uk1 and ui2 have both been updated to reflect the new skill functions.

Caravans currently on trade missions, harvesting etc are unaffected until they return from their last job.

Regards,

SC



Replies:
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 23:20
Cool.


Posted By: Raritor
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 23:39
Good!! 40 caravans were getting small.

Going back to what you mention about not adding upkeep to caravans, i think some players will not be bothered at all for paying for more caravans, maybe you can leave the first 40 or 70 for free, and then start charging for them, say 10 for the 1st, 20 for the 2nd (30 for all), 30 for the 3rd (60 so far), and so on. This way you can get many more, but after a quantity not really interesting.


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 23:46
I was thinking the same thing, Raritor.  So I say...what he said!


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 00:03
These are welcome changes.  I also support Raritor's suggested amendment (allow additional caravans outside current capacity, but with upkeep).


Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 01:10
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

I also support Raritor's suggested amendment (allow additional caravans outside current capacity, but with upkeep).


Concur


Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 03:10
Great changes!!!!Party

And good Idea Raritor!!!


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http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin


Posted By: deansieboy
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 06:12
what Raritor said.


Posted By: Mr Andersson
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 06:47
Sweet, appreciated changes! 

Also joining the Raritors choir



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MrA


Posted By: Mr Andersson
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 06:51
It says in the research tree that Commerce i available from Lvl 18, but above it says Lvl 20... 




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MrA


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 09:42
Originally posted by Mr Andersson Mr Andersson wrote:

It says in the research tree that Commerce i available from Lvl 18, but above it says Lvl 20... 




Ooops. Fixed in the description above.  It is available from L18 marketplace.

SC


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 09:58
On the upkeep front, it's definitely something we've considered - and haven't yet written off as a possibility.

However, we were slightly concerned about a number of things. For example:

  • The display of this upkeep in an easy-to-understand way, consistently across the site (ie on the Trade Summary, on the Castle Taxation page etc)
  • We'd need a "disband caravans" option in place
  • What happens if you run out of Gold in your town and we have to disband caravans... but those caravans are carrying goods...?  Or even worse, someone else's goods as part of a trade order?
  • Would this make assessing profit on a trade deal quite difficult to do, as you'd now have a new "overhead" number (time the caravans sat on the marketplace servicing the offer or travelling, and therefore costing gold); but that this overhead would only apply to some orders and not others?
  • This would fix a minimum price (for all items) if a player wished to recoup the cost of the caravan upkeep.  Generally we want market pricing to be as free as possible from system impositions.
  • Would this not (as things are currently, before "trade visibility" is implemented) create an out-of-your-control variable P&L on a trade?  A player at the other end of the map who accepts your trade deals and thereby tying up your caravans for a 6-day round trip, costing you X gold, might then turn your trade into a loss - and you had no control over it.
There are quite a few considerations here, and given the imminent introduction of taxation on trades we felt that this taxation itself might serve the equivalent purpose of upkeep.  This trade offer taxation doesn't, of course, effect the direct sending of goods town-to-town, but we have another plan for influencing that somewhat (details to be announced).

Regards,

SC


Posted By: Rupe
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 11:04
Originally posted by Raritor Raritor wrote:

Good!! 40 caravans were getting small.

Going back to what you mention about not adding upkeep to caravans, i think some players will not be bothered at all for paying for more caravans, maybe you can leave the first 40 or 70 for free, and then start charging for them, say 10 for the 1st, 20 for the 2nd (30 for all), 30 for the 3rd (60 so far), and so on. This way you can get many more, but after a quantity not really interesting.

Perhaps these charges are a little low.
The rate is good but if started from 0 it would be simpler to follow.
I would say
1 gold per hour per caravan would fit in well and an option to retire vans would also be nice.
Lets get ahead of ourselves and say in V3 vans can be hired out. Shocked




Posted By: Createure
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 11:32
Some welcome changes here I'm sure, they make the system make a little more sense, and again a bit more nooby friendly.

But essentially, for an advanced player, all this means is that they now you get to transport 210k resources instead of 120k per city per shipment.


Posted By: Raritor
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 11:42
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:


  • What happens if you run out of Gold in your town and we have to disband caravans... but those caravans are carrying goods...?  Or even worse, someone else's goods as part of a trade order?


If you run out of gold the caravans already moving will be disbanded when they are back home (as they are not home, news of the lack of money have not been received).

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

  • Would this make assessing profit on a trade deal quite difficult to do, as you'd now have a new "overhead" number (time the caravans sat on the marketplace servicing the offer or travelling, and therefore costing gold); but that this overhead would only apply to some orders and not others?
  • This would fix a minimum price (for all items) if a player wished to recoup the cost of the caravan upkeep.  Generally we want market pricing to be as free as possible from system impositions.
  • Would this not (as things are currently, before "trade visibility" is implemented) create an out-of-your-control variable P&L on a trade?  A player at the other end of the map who accepts your trade deals and thereby tying up your caravans for a 6-day round trip, costing you X gold, might then turn your trade into a loss - and you had no control over it.
SC


We are talking about upkeep cost when you caravans are above a number, so if you decide to build them, you take those risks. Now all have 40 caravans, soon many will have 70 (that's almost double). Some of us want to have more. The first 70 are for free, you will pay for the others, so we have to decide if the cost is reasonable, if we made a wrong decision and lost some money... bad luck.

Hope it helps

Thanks



Posted By: McFarhquar
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 12:04
Another idea, once Trade v2 is implemented, is to have a caravan tax rather than caravan upkeep.  Have the Imperial tax rate be incremented based on the number of caravans owned.  That would eliminate the "run out of money" problem, as charges could only be incurred if the player had enough gold to complete the transaction.


Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 12:33
Factoring operating costs into merchantile operations rarely works out into something that can be simply mapped to a per-sale overhead anyway.  Traders would just have to be competent economists, else wing it.

And, of course, challenge => opportunity


Posted By: Mr. Ubiquitous Feral
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 16:33
My not silly idea;
 
1)   Create 'Merchant' class as a player role.
2)   Merchant player would pay business tax based on actual profits.
3)   Merchant would have access to different styles of caravan to build, at differing costs and upkeep.
4)   I eat pizza.
 
I'm just saying, you know?


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I am a Machine.


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 17:06
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Would this not (as things are currently, before "trade visibility" is implemented) create an out-of-your-control variable P&L on a trade?  A player at the other end of the map who accepts your trade deals and thereby tying up your caravans for a 6-day round trip, costing you X gold, might then turn your trade into a loss - and you had no control over it.


Still no to make it so people can say people X distance away cannot accept your trade offers?


Posted By: shaagar
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 17:08
I agree with Raritor!
Good changes, I'm upgrading my trading skills yet in all my cities I'm a trading enthusiast!


Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 17:48
Perhaps have a cost for the caravans trip distance? and no other cost?
Say a caravan travels 100 squares(back and forth) and that costs 50 gold, or another scenario like that, that would solve the caravan being disbanded during travel time, either that or have it disbanded as soon as it is done delivering goods.


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http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin


Posted By: xBloodxPoolx
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2011 at 06:05

70 caravans per town this is going to be great!!!



Posted By: hydraa
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 13:40
There are a couple of quests that need to be reworded slightly because of these changes (tipsy cantering)


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 18:30
Originally posted by hydraa hydraa wrote:

There are a couple of quests that need to be reworded slightly because of these changes (tipsy cantering)


Indeed there are, and ty hydraa for mentioning them, as they were overlooked.

3 Quest descriptions have been changed to remove the "you need a marketplace Lx" text.

Many thanks,

SC


Posted By: Amroth
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 14:43
These are nice improve. I would still like to see caravans deploy from one city, collect goods and deliver to another city of same member? This sounds reasonable as the Lord of both should have ability to divert caravan to another holding, also should be able to purchase at marketplace  and assign destination for goods delivered. Since goods purchased are delivered, the buying party should be able to specify delivery locale. Advanced trade aspects for your consideration...

now how bout border fortresses that are erected at distance from city and garrisoned with soldiers from city within distance boundary. and fortress forces should be able to auto deploy (if set to) against hostile invading forces (diplomatic or military), coming in within designated range of position. These fortresses also open to attack and should be able to have defensive levels and fortification additions upgradable also. Advanced territorial security aspects for your consideration...

finally, how bout anti dip units that can go into another player holding and attack diplomatic units there?
Advanced diplomatic interaction aspects for consideration... keep up the good work, we are happy to see Illyriad change and grow. nice job with this. Wink



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