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CDS

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Elgea
Forum Description: For everything related to the Elgea Continent
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=10810
Printed Date: 08 Aug 2020 at 15:54
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: CDS
Posted By: Grom
Subject: CDS
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2020 at 23:59
After careful deliberation, Tcol has decided to drop its confed with NCrow, effectively ending the CDS initiative. We are doing so in order to protect our friends, who are not pvp oriented, from being dragged into a fight they didn't ask for, and in which they took no part. No war was declared on them, but nonetheless they got targeted by an opponent desperately looking for a "win".

We thank nCrow for their partnership, and for having shown the vision to look past the old divides. We wish them well on any future endeavors, and continue to view them as good friends.

Since the question will undoubtedly come up, this changes nothing about the claim. Tcol continues to view Mal Motsha, Keshalia and Kul Tar (deserts) as its rightful homeland, over which it exerts full authority.

Grom 



Replies:
Posted By: BayNights
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 04:21
We accept Tcol's historic surrender and resignation of the CDS land claim. We also accept the effective liberation of Tamarin, Taomist and Laoshin territories from stated Tcol/CDS control. 

While we understand that many passive CDS members were forced in to this uneasy "initiative" by threat of force from their Mal Motsha neighbors, this surrender does show Illyriad that inappropriate actions have consequences and forced partnerships seldom work. 

We look forward to continued liberation of the Elgean map and the more positive community discussion this will bring.


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 12:51
Who's "We" ?

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PublicRelations
HumanResources


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 12:54
You really have problems with comprehensive reading (among other things) don't you? This decision was our own, it has no concequences for Tcol's claim (nCrow and it's potential successor alliance /merger candidates are free to do as they wish with their own claim). 

There is, to reiterate for readers of equally challenged mental capacity as Bay (no judgment here, we all grow at our own pace), no question of surrender or resignation of any kind. Tcol maintains all it's claimed territory, and the only thing that practically changes on our end is the name. From now on the area will simply be called the eastern empire instead of colonial desert state.

By all means though, celebrate this as a win; you do need one. But I think you'll find this one will come at a cost. Not just from reprisals but from the fact that your desperate actions undermine the rhetorical veneer you use to underpin them. 


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 17:27
For those of us who don't know (aka me), what was nCrow's contribution to the CDS? 

Was their inclusion used to expand the size of the claim? 

Was nCrow ever actively involved in enforcing the land claim, or was that solely the job of TCol? Or was nCrow's contribution largely titular? (Can I use that word in the forums?)


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https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/394156" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 18:39
Wow, resorting to personal insults already? You must be real desperate to spin this one your way. You're right, there is no question about whether or not you surrendered or resigned the CDS, since you quite obviously did. "Surrendered", "resigned", "ending", "came crumbling down",....
And after only a small handful of attacks and a couple igms, I might add. 


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 21:59
JJ, they joined because they wanted to maintain their own homelands (claims), andwwe were promoting the idea of claims/homelands in Elgea. We did not fight together, as they were/are not a pvp alliance. I think the best way to view it is two seperate, neighboring, but ideologically different claims running under a umbrella organization/name.

Spektor, there is no need for me to spin anything. You successfully managed to sneak attack a peaceful alliance. I regret this because they did not deserve it. But the formal seperation of the two claims in no way harms Tcol or its territory. It does however goes to show that you are willing to look everywhere, and do anything, to fabricate some narrative of succes you clearly cannot achieve against Tcol itself. 

As for personal attacks, maybe I shouldn't have suggested Bay is stupid. Then again, maybe Bay shouldn't play (one hopes this is the case) dumb.


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 01:05
Haha, you used troops outside your alliance to defend your cities and then cried foul when cities outside your alliance got razed. It's a great comeuppance. 

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I am not amused.


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 04:41
Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

but nonetheless they got targeted by an opponent desperately looking for a "win".

Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

It does however goes to show that you are willing to look everywhere, and do anything, to fabricate some narrative of succes you clearly cannot achieve against Tcol itself.


You are misrepresenting your opponents thoughts and motivations to cast them in a negative light. That falls under "spin". Arguing in bad faith is another name for it.

Whereas:

1. We now have military control in Ursor, where you've been driven out.
2. Your "state" has been dissolved as a direct consequence of our actions.

No fabrications of success needed, and no one is desperate.






Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 07:51
We never used outside troops. If you wish to celebrate the dissolution of a union between two already separately operating, but friendly entities then that's your right, but the result doesn't change anything. We never had an interest in Ursor  (which is Ascn's back yard) except one player (Hath) who was slowly moving  to the alliance cluster after joining. You saw that as an easy target and took it. It got you a successful raze, I won't begrudge you that. The rest of his cities got out safe thanks to Josh sacrificing one of his (Josh really is like a red cloth to you, isn't he?). Now you are in an area where neither you, nor us, were ever welcome. 

So no, we're not spinning, you are. Iron used to be much better than this, and I personally feel KoA would be ashamed if he could see your conduct these days. You may find that remark to be below the belt, but perhaps it will cause some reflection on what you were (a pvp alliance challenging the best) , and what you are becoming by organizing sneak attacks on  peaceful farmers. You are, in a very real sense, taking the bad qualities you perceive in Tcol and are turning them up a notch. Whether that's an inherent change in Iron, or just the result of following Bay, I cannot venture to guess. My hope is the latter. 


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 17:08
You in no way directly addressed the instances of spin which I pointed out above. Instead, you seemingly attempted to hide that diversion behind tangential and repetitive rhetoric, along with further spin. Moreover, you greatly changed the subject to start attacking the character of me and my alliance. I won't be following you down this hole of poor debate tactics and fallacious arguments.And to respond on Karl's behalf, at least one army, belonging to Itchy from Order of the Owl, was seen (via battle report XML) inside of HumanResources' Ursor town.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 17:29
I'll need to ask around. If OoTo troops were used that's a clear faul, and i'll address it. How that leads to attacking nCrow however isn't clear to me. The only reason I can see to target them is from Bay's end, to further provoke Ascn, with whom he has an escalation grudge.

I addressed all of the topics you view as spins twice now, and will not keep reiterating them. It's probably (thinking as an optimist) a genuine matter of two completely different views of the same event.

As for the attacks on your alliance, yes.  I find it very hard to comprehend how Iron went from a group that could fight Sin (sort of), to a group that in over 24 months of war doesn't score (or even attempt) a single raze on the enemy they declared on, only to finally follow a presumably lesser alliance in a cowardly surprise attack on a peaceful alliance in its twilight. 


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 18:18
Then stick to the facts. Speculation on your part is always wrong.

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I am not amused.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 18:31
Everything I've stated are facts. As least as far as Iron is concerned. As for the claim of OoTo troops being used, I am not aware. I'm taking you at your word enough to look into it. You, on the other hand, are completely ignoring the accusations made at you: being that, unable to attack Tcol for over 24 months, you cowardly attacked a peaceful alliance instead. And even that you couldn't manage on your own. 


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 19:01
You really have problems with comprehensive reading (among other things) don't you? If we don't try for a while we aren't desperate. You don't even have your own story straight. Don't try to tell our story.

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I am not amused.


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 19:11
Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

I addressed all of the topics you view as spins twice now

You did not. You claimed that your opponent is desperate for a win. You also claimed your opponent is not able have success directly against you. Both of these claims are unsubstantiated, and are presumably meant to make your opponent look bad. I deny both of these claims that you have yet to substantiate.

Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

Everything I've stated are facts. As least as far as Iron is concerned.

Now this is just laughable, and patently false.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 19:19
Just calling somehting false doesn't make it so. I claimed that Iron, in 24 months of war declared by them, did not manage a single siege on Tcol. That is a fact. I also mentioned that Iron instead launched a surprise attack against nCrow, that is a fact. I claimed nCrow to be a peaceful alliance, another fact (unless you want to dig into history to a point before Iron even existed). I claimed you could not (or at least chose not to) do so on your own strength. Another fact. If you are falling over the word desperate, then i'll admit that a presumption on the emotional state of another person, or group of people, cannot strictly speaking be be a fact. That's just how you come across. 


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 20:13
How'd that work out for the CDS?

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I am not amused.


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 20:26
Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

Just calling somehting false doesn't make it so.

You're absolutely right. Which is why I included "patently", because it seemed so incredibly obvious that you had not stated nothing but facts, which you have now agreed with, thank you very much. We might actually be getting somewhere here.

Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

I claimed you could not (or at least chose not to) do so [manage a single siege on Tcol] on your own strength.

"Did not do so" would be the actual fact here. The rest is just your guess.

Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

If you are falling over the word desperate, then i'll admit that a presumption on the emotional state of another person, or group of people, cannot strictly speaking be be a fact. That's just how you come across. 

Grudgingly walking back one of your original claims. I'll accept it. Thank you.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 20:37
You keep insisting that the CDS as such matters. It was a name. One we chose to use as an umbrella for our claims. The name now changes. So be it. That's the price to to show how morally corrupt you are becoming, and to shine the spotlight on the injustice suffered by nCrow. A price we gladly paid. That's not remotely what's interesting here. What's interesting is the point I have been making, and which you keep ignoring because it's an uncomfortable truth. That Iron has grown so weak over the last two to three years that it now celebrates riding Bay's coattails as he goes to battle against peaceful farmers. That you have factually become that which you have always claimed to abhor.


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 21:02
More non-facts. More spin.
Nope, guess we weren't getting anywhere...


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 21:12
Abandon the name, abandon the players. The fact that you chose to go to the forums rather than defend your confederation with in-game mechanics speaks volumes about you.

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I am not amused.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 22:34
Not getting anywhere seems to be the Iron way. For me this conversation is over. Feel free to ramble on as long as you need to in order to sustain your self-delusions. 


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 02:19
Delusions?

You mean like stating your opinions and claiming them as facts?


Posted By: Wild
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 16:09

Just remind me - both sides here are attempting to cause more players to abandon yes? I read that TCol are looking like good peeps now - only newbs quitting, have to say, knowing the players that were initially against land claiming alliances, they DO seem worse than the ones scaring away small players that never had a chance to work out even what the "illy politics" were about. They were blessed to never know Ouch

If you could all agree here, that old and new players leaving the game is a bad thing for illy...? Might be some common ground to work on... I for one am tired of two faced bull crap - you know who you are! 

To say one style of play is wrong is one thing, to play dirtier than what you say you are against is another! Server war sound fun? Dead The game was never the same since last time Cry Goodbye once again the players that used to enjoy illy, forced PvP is BAD for the game. 

I for certain am tired of seeing old friends leave... on both sides of the fence, just FFS have some conscience about what you all are trying to achieve... might be the end of of the end before you know it  Clap Please do not be a part of ending, what has become "a happy place" for a decade, for the few of us old timers still here? I actually DO want to keep logging on, for some strange and bizarre reason! Shocked

PLEASE...  (and thanks for reading :)) 



Posted By: BrianN
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 19:54
Its tough to tell, but who are you ingame Wild?


Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 20:38
Let me say this first, PVP and military play is not my main focus in the game. I do see PVP / military play as a "necessary evil" in games though and i am willing to defend myself and fight for what i believe in. With PVP i mean players vs. players (or alliances vs alliances), i.e. direct combat for cities (and NOT tournaments).

Originally posted by Wild Wild wrote:

Just remind me - both sides here are attempting to cause more players to abandon yes?

I do think they are trying to do the opposite. PVP and military play is fun for a lot of players. In addition i do not think that PVP is the main reason players are quitting (it was there for years) - its just to blame something you don't like. The main reason usually is that people get bored or have other priorities - after all most players are playing for multiple years (or even decades).

Originally posted by Wild Wild wrote:

Goodbye once again the players that used to enjoy illy, forced PvP is BAD for the game. 

I completely disagree. PVP makes the game fun and exiting for a lot of players. In addition it gives you are reason to continue playing it. And yes, there is a lot of non-PVP stuff in Illyriad - but at some point people are going to get bored and then PVP is a good alternative. PVP is a good and easy way to increase the lifetime of a game. It changes by itself (alliances/players/wars change) while all other mechanics kinda stay the same.

I really do not get that some players complain that others use mechanics (PVP) that are in the game and intended by the devs. Why did you start playing Illyriad if you knew there was PVP and you don't like PVP? 
In addition there are ways to avoid wars or PVP (e.g. join a regional non-PVP alliance) - people can (and should) use that more. And well, sometimes you have to fight back against bullies. If you do not like that or are not willing to do it - again, why play a game with PVP?





Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 03:03
Originally posted by Wild Wild wrote:

Just remind me - both sides here are attempting to cause more players to abandon yes?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


Posted By: willd elff
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 14:57
Not me! I am not this rude....


Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 15:11
I believe an important distinction needs to be made.

Forced PvP, specifically in instances of players who don't want to do PvP in the first place, definitely can cause abandoning. This type of PvP isn't good for the game.

PvP between alliances and players that actually want PvP is unlikely to cause abandoning, and instead is likely to cause people to stick around as they get to do the stuff they like doing.

If people like the actual war aspects of the game, surely they'd want to fight a willing and capable opponent? If they don't want to fight a willing and capable opponent, then they don't like the war aspects of the game, they like beating up on people who can't defend themselves. 

Where things become muddled is when you declare on an alliance that is closely allied with an alliance you're at war at, to the extent that they are under the same banner with regards to landclaims. It seems likely that a number of accounts in nCrow were supplying TCol with resources, thus a declaration on them could be seen as an attack on the resource base holding up TCol. 

In my opinion, the specific case of nCrow being declared on seems fine, if only because they decided to landclaim. If you landclaim, because enforcing removal of hostile towns is an essential part of keeping a landclaim, you are saying to the world at large that you are willing to participate in PvP. Thus, because nCrow were involved in a landclaim, they advertised willingness to participate in PvP, regardless of whether they actually were willing to participate in PvP.


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This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...



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