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Should we just play the game as it exists today?

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=10443
Printed Date: 23 Oct 2019 at 19:46
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Should we just play the game as it exists today?
Posted By: Ten Kulch
Subject: Should we just play the game as it exists today?
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 22:05
#blameEowan

People like brainstorming new features. Particularly free features that give them something for nothing, or features that put their enemies at a disadvantage. Generally these discussions are harmless, but will they ever come to fruition? My experience says, probably not.

My personal belief is that we need to play Illyriad the way that it exists today. The devs still fix bugs (which is commendable), but they develop their own new features like the monster tournament. Asking for battle magic, or new alliance functions, or harvester recall, or significant code base changes is an exercise in futility. Probably the most promising requests are the ones that involve tweaking a few parameters--e.g. the 5x equipment update, the infantry terrain update, raising city cap, increasing storehouse capacity.

Further, I believe that players with creative inclinations should focus on devising new sub-games within the sandbox, rather than prevailing upon the devs to address their various feature ideas.

What do you think: play Illyriad as it stands, keep brainstorming ideas, invent your own sandbox games, or something else entirely?



Replies:
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 22:45
lol

Personally, I view all games such as this as a work in progress with small tweaks that can be made to push things towards a more balanced game/ fix bugs and large updates that add new content. 

I agree that minor things are more likely, hence my original polls focus on things which to me seem relatively minor- a change in the cost of alliances and a limit to the political ties an alliance can have. 

As for the reason for the polls, seeing as how the forums are fairly inactive, I figure I might as well use them to see what people think and perhaps indicate small things the devs could do to improve the game in small ways

Also, Mr Special Snowflake, didn't you pick other on my alliance cost poll? :P


Posted By: Blankit
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 23:37
Proposing farfetched changes and discussing them seems to be the least distracted way of irrelevant talk. Most people will sigh in the end and won't expect the changes.


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---E ---E Now selling pitchforks at The Pitchfork -Emporium. ---E ---E


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 00:15
Well, you know my opinion on this.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 00:36
Actually I will elaborate.
1. The current game mechanics works poorly for new players. It takes anywhere from several months to a year of mind numbing grind for a beginner to get to any kind of interesting game play and making impact. This is why there is so much new player attrition.
2. There are no interesting objectives in illyriad, no resources to compete for. People who stick around fall largely into 2 camps: those who use the game as mostly a backdrop for an anonymous fantasy Facebook chat, or those who play an elaborate metagame of politics and server dominance (which, I'd like to stress, is not always military).
3. There are a few things in the game mechanics that lead to deep imbalances and block new creative ways of playing the game IMO. One such factor is imbalance between attackers and defenders on different terrains, which makes plains the only valid choice for terrain surrounding a city and boxes in both offensive and defensive strategy. Another is the ongoing recycling of big old accounts - that, to some degree, can be countered by active alliances. Yet it makes problem #1 worse making the gap between new and old players very intimidating.

These problems result in stagnation of the server and need to be addressed.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 01:23
Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:

Also, Mr Special Snowflake, didn't you pick other on my alliance cost poll?

Just as there is only One Ring, I am the only true special snowflake.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 04:00
I think the discussion should always be centered around    ($ Devs make extra)/(Difficulty to code) 

For example most of the boosts have to be refreshed, a simple auto-refresh prestige option would be relatively simple to code and likely increase profits.  

Wars destroy cities which get rebuilt using prestige.  But the devs have allowed for very few reasons for player base to go to war.  Thus adding things like territory control would lead to more war and thus more rebuiding and more money.  

Wonders (alliance buildings) would likely lead to money being spent on speeding vans but probably requires a lot of code and only a temporary funding boost.  


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 04:13
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

I think the discussion should always be centered around    ($ Devs make extra)/(Difficulty to code) 
 


I think the tweaks in the game math would not be difficult to code. They may be more difficult to reason through, and sometimes have unintended consequences (like crafted gear update + defy death bug).

Adding reasons to go to war might may be a harder one to implement, but would it motivate more player spending? Yes!

Making it for new players radically cheaper to build up a basic account (make it so it wouldn't be crazy to have 5 first cities fully built in a month, but then up the curve from there) could be one such numeric tweak. I think it would expand the paying player base for sure.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 04:42
That would probably be easier to sell if you could package it as build time modifications, or else a reduction in population required for the first 5 cities.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Alcie
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 06:42
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

#blameEowan

People like brainstorming new features. Particularly free features that give them something for nothing, or features that put their enemies at a disadvantage. Generally these discussions are harmless, but will they ever come to fruition? My experience says, probably not.?


I have two somewhat generic responses besides 'brainstorming is fun' although i admit I do like proposing farfetched changes even if they will never happen.

1. Since the game's release, tons of things have been added to the game, continuing into recent years (although much more slowly than they used to, they haven't stopped). Think crafting, fishing, new buildings and research, the current trade system, npc behaviors, faction stuff, etc. etc. Some of these things we knew would eventually come but others were part of 'brainstorming is fun' exercises. Sometimes the developers had already been planning them anyways and we got a pleasant surprise, but there have also been plenty of tweaks over the years which the developers have done from player feedback (such as recent additions and changing behavior to tournament squares).

2. Personally I also enjoy new features which put me at a disadvantage. Like the fact that evil faction npcs attack me EVERY SINGLE DAY to destroy the army I have attempting to protect a mine    It is frustrating and it only happens in places like where I live next to extremely belligerent npcs. But.. its also fun! Added complexity and just interesting things to do and think about. Also, back to 1., this is something I had been 'brainstorming for fun' in the game for years, so I was excited when it finally came to the game not all that long ago.





Posted By: Almost Balanced
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 10:22
For developers

1. Traffic with gold, t2, t3 resources only through the official market.

2.Advanced resources can be transferred from allianced player to allianced player, but in limited amounts and at clear time intervals. Basic resources are free to transferring betwen players.

3. Add to each trained trader at least 5 extra wagons.

4. Reduce the number of soldiers in underground units.

5. Reward players for outstanding accomplishments at a military, commercial, construction site. For activity too.

6. Finish with quizzes, join the community otherwise.

7. King Sigurd should be much more generous.
(A higher prize for every established city)

8.Tavern, Magic Tower deserves a little more of your effort.

10. Many unusable, useless minerals, rare plants, animal parts. Do something. (Honey production, maybe :-D)

About sitters, sat accounts, everything is said.
You know so much more than all of us.


Posted By: Almost Balanced
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 10:31
And reducing number of System messages, and notifications should be gorgeous.
;-)


Posted By: rajput
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 12:41
TK, I get what you are trying to say... Its like reading a novel, every author tells a story in his/er own way... and it may be unfair to critic their work... Honestly if you look in this context then it does feel wrong to propose/critic things... Its their world and they are sharing with us I get that...

But the reality of time and the age we are going through is that people like (and are encouraged) to imagine things and form opinions. Whether it is a car, a house, a phone, or a toaster we all have our opinions and imaginations on how it can be better... This have led to a great flow of ideas and also as a side-effect we are never really satisfied with anything completely...

Another point, like allot of social-media twitter, facebook, youtube etc... If you dont frequently post stuff, you start to fade... Unfortunately, same thing now applies here and many other products... If you dont keep improving or updating you will start fading... 

Having said all that, dont get me wrong. I love what the developers have done here... They have introduced intriguing complexity into the game which I love otherwise I wouldn't be here for 6 or so years.

Would like Illy to be here for another 6 and more power to the Devlprs. Beer


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Warning! Author of this post has weird sense of humor...


Posted By: Dabrelis
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 18:04
Is there any good reason why New towns can't start with level 12 resource plots done?


Posted By: Dabrelis
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 18:06
Can't find how to edit this thing, but basically instead of new towns, let's use New player. 
Or is the resource sharing and gifting intended to show welcoming spirit of community?


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 18:50
Resource gifting and generally being welcoming of new players is a nice tradition. It makes illy stand out among other strategy MMOs. We should keep that up!
Yet it doesn't solve the problem of new players being very rapidly turned off. I think the tedium of building up resource plots and getting the basic research done in your first cities just gets to be too much. Siege and Exodus are the two key research items that are an all consuming bottleneck. I'm personally fine with stuff like crafting research or commander skills or trade progression, but perhaps just lowering the siege and Exodus requirements to level 12 barracks and warehouse and reducing the time it takes would unblock many players. And +1 to the resource plot suggestion.

New players, your thoughts?


Posted By: Mr. Ubiquitous Feral
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 20:07
I bet you 1 cow that most of those newbs are terras. I don't help anymore until a player has left the rainbow and passes 450 pop.

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I am a Machine.


Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 20:11
Given that the price of terras has risen from 25 to 30 mil, it would seem supply has not increased that much. 


Posted By: Dabrelis
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 21:58
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:


New players, your thoughts?
I am only one of the new players, and the one who stayed :) So, hm.

And I do not have a formulated opinion yet on everything, just thinking out aloud. Thoughts are numbered, but in no particular order.

1) It feels wrong to be put in the crowded place of million of other newbs plus veterans. You realize you could use Tenaril to get somewhere else, but you are (perhaps rightly) advised not to. Only smart way to get out is Exodus, and that is lvl 20 warehouse
2) Gifts are double edged sword. 
I imagine somewhere is a place for the game how it was meant to play, you build up your little village, you hunt your first animal, sell it for 20k, get super hyped. Research your first craft, build a Razor Edged sword for your commander. Kill beasts better. Feel proud. Don't think of some warehouses of level 20... just enjoy slow growth, getting better, killing more efficient, becoming richer.. in some vacuum-ish environment..
Today you do it, you hunt wild dogs. Sell their skins for 2k each, get 100k back in Centrum, feel like - yeah, I earned that, I can do some shopping, look at me and my 100k! And then they send you 1 million, saddles, armour and stuff just like that. 
On other hand if you don't receive them, others do receive. They would get upper hand. 
And gifts indeed create a welcoming atmosphere, that is really nice.
3) Then at around 1.5k pop, 2 towns size you check and notice a guy with 25 legendary towns. Wtf?
4) Mysteries are cool. For me, I like the fact there is some challenge that nobody has done.
5) Another thing that is cool, is that cotters, hunting, etc, pays well if you know what you are doing. The Newb guides should be replaced with - spam cottages, get barracks to 5, research infantry, go kill some beasts, there is your combat calculator for first couple of battles.
6) I am starting to feel that Newbs should beeline Marketplace to 20 instead of Barracks/Warehouse. Having ability to purchase 210k basic res per one go, gives you much more independence than any other thing.
7) Lack of forums. I am old school. I feel like there is very little geopolitical information being shared on forums or available, stuff happens in alliances and some shaddows of it in GC. I liked that Illy Warmonger had some descriptions of actual PvP conflicts and battles. Otherwise there would be no way for me to know. 
You can get some pieces of it, when talking to some guys who were actually involved in some conflicts. ACTUALLY, wait a second! That might be good. Like in Iron Age if Rome fought whoever they did, my Baltic ancestors would find out only if some mercenary guy visited that far North.. Hm. Hmmm. Maybe it fits great the epic time the game is based on? 
But - getting back to this issue. When I looked for a game to play, I checked the forums. I noticed 2 posts in last 2 days. I thought, wow, this game is dead. But I liked the concept, so gave it a try anyway.
8) I said cotters, skinners, etc are great to earn money. That is correct, but their management is pain. You send them to wrong spots, they (skinners in particular) have to be sent out manually every time. Which just adds to decisions or actions that require no thinking.
9) Resource plot upgrades should somehow be automated. Not sure how. I want to make a more strategic decision - as to which buildings my town is going to have. What I am gonna do with the town. Not the boring - upgrade plot to 4. Upgrade plot to 5. Upgrade plot to 6. 
10) I second Tink on "surrounded by plains" rule. It does not make game better if there is one really valid choice (apart from I guess surround yourself with active dwarf military players and build anywhere?). To that I could add, for example, fact that Elves are about bows, bows suck in forest. Elves should avoid forest??? Tolkien rolls in his grave. No suggestions however.
11) Having said all the critics above, I am hooked to this game. Spending lots of time hunting and skinning. Looking to start producing axes in my Dabegarda any time soon-ish. So, I like the game, and the points above are just the ones I wanted to raise.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 22:08
Exodus should be available at Warehouse 12, research time 1 day.

It's soul crushing for n00bs to build all the way to 20, only to rip it apart when they move. That pain is compounded by the terrible community advice that new players should save their teleport like some precious treasure. 95% of them will never need a terraformed city. All these factors combine to delay players from moving to their chosen alliance areas for 1-2 weeks. If it's a social game, it should be much easier to accomplish joining your comrades.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 00:41
One of the things I liked when I joined Illy was how open the developers were to new ideas and player feedback. Perhaps the days when the devs would regularly talk with players will never return, but what harm is there in talking about what we'd like.

Yes, play Illy the way it is today, but why not dream about what it COULD be?


Posted By: Mr. Ubiquitous Feral
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 00:45
/me dreams of fire breathing unicorns and free range skittles.

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I am a Machine.


Posted By: Bill Cipher
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 02:49
Well congrats on semi reviving the forums eo

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d-a-r-o-r-w-o pb wlph kdv frph wr exuq. l lqyrnh wkh dqflhqw srzhu wkdw l pdb uhwxuq


Posted By: Almost Balanced
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 07:41
Rill is missing.

Too much.


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 10:25
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Exodus should be available at Warehouse 12, research time 1 day.

It's soul crushing for n00bs to build all the way to 20, only to rip it apart when they move. That pain is compounded by the terrible community advice that new players should save their teleport like some precious treasure. 95% of them will never need a terraformed city. All these factors combine to delay players from moving to their chosen alliance areas for 1-2 weeks. If it's a social game, it should be much easier to accomplish joining your comrades.

This sounds great. Maybe level 15 so a small penalty applies

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PublicRelations
HumanResources


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 13:32
I do believe new players should have a quick start to game, that combined with a stop to sitting old inactive accounts would bring more balance to the game. These are obvious things that need corrected for the sake of the game and yet no one, other than Tink, has complained about sit accounts.Perhaps to many here are using them.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 18:54
White Willow, you will find that even if devs tighten up the rules for inactive accounts this will not make the "permasats" go away. The 500 pound gorilla in the room is password sharing. All illy vets know that. But dealing with the real multiaccounting is not only more challenging because of the sleuth work involved but risky because some of these players also pay money for prestige. Much less risky to address the new player influx/retention issue.


Posted By: rajput
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 20:46
Wait a min! Did I hear that right! Someone is gifting 1Mil saddle armor and stuff! What! Shocked
I been playing this freakin game for ages nobody sent me stuff like that Unhappy

* starts trashing his room in disappointment * Wacko

BTW I played for 2+ yrs before joining any alliance... Alliance become necessary when you want to participate in tourneys or need insurance policy... But you can do without them and there are players who are doing it still.


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Warning! Author of this post has weird sense of humor...


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 00:10
Tink I won't give up on the sitter abuse and they can easily restrict use with no troop or van movement while sitting.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 00:57
I find the poll results interesting. Not the suggestions, but the mentality. Zero people said that the community should focus more effort on creating community content within the sandbox.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 01:27
My experience with making things of my own in the game is that it is a lot of work for very little reward. Fine if you'll have fun doing it but once the fun stops, it essentially becomes like having a part time job.

That being said, if there had been an option for both, I would have picked it.


Posted By: Ruarc
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 09:46
tl;dr - The community is too inward looking. Even land claims are fundamentally focused on the internal player/alliance. That's not necessarily bad, but it is odd. A change might be helpful, but wanton destruction would be bad for the continuation of the game.
 
 
To my mind, all of this (this poll, the recent batch of suggestions) is approaching the problem the wrong way. I don't think that people play the game because of the specifics of the mechanics. I reckon people stick around because there are interesting goals to reach and stories to tell.
 
The odd thing about Illyriad is that most of those goals and stories are self-contained. Even land claims, for all the upset they've caused, are fundamentally inward looking. The friction they generated wasn't the outcome of any particular land claim (because who cares exactly if players can't settle in some place 99% of the playerbase had no intention of settling in anyway?), but rather a showdown between two competing ideologies. The problem is that the anti-land claimers side can't seem to be bothered enough to put up an effective response, the land-claimers seem to have limited interest in looking beyond their immediate borders, and the peanut gallery is content to continue their own self-contained goals and stories largely ignorant of the going's-on because 1) it doesn't affect them, and 2) nobody from either side is saying anything about the conflict, and 3) there's basically no drama.

Emerson's suggestion about an Illy-wide court of petitioners, flawed as it was, did look at forcing the community to engage more with each other. That's the sort of thinking that's needed to alter the self-contained mindset that dominates Illyriad today.
 
I'm not necessarily convinced that the current situation is bad. I think it very odd that a persistent strategy mmo is so clearly focused on self-contained goals and stories, but I suspect that it has helped the game survive. If anyone is thinking a change would be good remember that it's important not to over-correct. Replacing the existing paradigm with the wanton destruction typified in other (typically round-based) mmo strategy games would be a step in the wrong direction and lead to builder's, who I suspect are responsible for keeping Illy afloat financially, quitting or buying less prestige.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 19:19
Ruarc I am not convinced by your argument that the changes being proposed here are inward looking. The argument that was brought up in the thread and has resonated with some of the responders was that the game is lacking in dynamics and we need to have more active players (which by necessity means that more of new players would play on).
It's simple really. The "warmongers" in this community are seeking to engage with other alliances through the game mechanics. That's why we set up land claims and the silversteel cartel and Thunderdome and play politics. Not because we care so much about our borders. Without more players the map is too sparse and these interactions don't happen. We are not advocating for changes that would lead to a much more destructive or aggressive PvP like more prestige bonuses or super powerful crafted gear. It's the interaction between players that makes the game dynamic. If everyone sits in their respective corner and farms gold and hunts NPCs, there is little interaction. If people build alliance and have disputes over territories or mines or special map landmarks, that's interaction.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 19:20
Ruarc, I have seen that kind of debate in many other games. People want more of a particular playstyle (their preferred style, of course), and so they propose radical changes to force the rest of the player base to engage in that particular way. I don't recall that ever working out. In Illyriad, we've heard many proposals for how players and alliances should be forced to trade and interact more, for example. I personally don't see the value in putting a gun to people's heads with new game mechanics to force any particular behaviors. One of the nice things about Illyriad is that you can still play a slow paced builder game with a socializing element, if you are really so inclined.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 19:30
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:

The "warmongers" in this community are seeking to engage with other alliances through the game mechanics. That's why we set up land claims and the silversteel cartel and Thunderdome and play politics. Not because we care so much about our borders.

I was with you until that last bit.

Having been previously ambushed by an organized group of attackers who built up nearby over the course of several months, I see the value to holding strangers' cities at arms length. There is a major difference between having 1.5 hours to respond to attacks, compared to 1.5 days. Also, it's just nice to have a clear patch of map with nothing but confed green, where you can place your cities without worrying about all these 10 square halos. To me, land claims are a great example of using meta-gaming to achieve something of actual value in the game.

I would put that in contrast to things that are interaction purely for interaction's sake.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 20:06
Tenk, sure, there is strategic value to land claims in that it makes our alliance territory much more secure. I wanted to emphasize the external facing aspect of land claims. In the end it would be silly to obsess with self defense if nobody is motivated to attack you anyway.


Posted By: Ruarc
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 23:00
@Tink: 
 
It's possible I wasn't very clear. What I'm suggesting is that the game is lacking the typical political dynamic present in most other mmo titles because the community is fundamentally focused on internal goals - typically self-contained at the alliance or player level and these goals require limited interaction with other people. I don't see any suggestion that actually obliges an increase in interaction amongst the playerbase (with exception to Emerson's Court of Petitioners, which wasn't a good idea but would actually work towards fixing the problem - or what I reckon is the problem anyway).
 
I think it's pretty clear that the engagement you're speaking about isn't having the intended result. Land claims are, by necessity, inward-focused. They might extend, in practice, a little beyond their stated borders but as you say yourself - player density, especially in the BL, isn't sufficient to make that into a big enough issue to shake long-standing inward-focused mindsets. The Silversteel cartel can be similarly ignored by basically everyone without much difficulty. The same is true of the Thunderdome. Don't get me wrong, these are all interesting initiatives and I'm eagerly awaiting to see what comes next from the most active crowd in the game, but in a community which was more focused on external goals and engagement such actions would have generated far more interest than the half-hearted effort arrayed against SIN et al. The community hasn't responded energetically, and my argument is that's largely because the community has no reason to care. The mechanics, and the mindset which has developed around them, is inward-looking with self-contained goals and objectives that require little to no interaction with other players and there's - rightly but problematically - no mechanics nor appetite amongst active players to force or encourage that interaction.
 
@Ten Kulch:
 
I quite agree. As I said, I don't think the current situation is necessarily bad, and I certainly would be very cautious as to any suggestion which had the potential to over-correct (e.g. something like Emerson's Court of Petitioners). I do think though that if there is to be greater engagement then we're going to need to see something (either a mechanic or player-driven activity) that's more all-encompassing than what we've seen to date. What that might be I don't know. Also, it could well be that Illyriad's simply not the kind of game which has the same level of political interaction and intrigue that is so typical of other mmo strategy games and the majority of goals and objectives pursued by players will remain largely self-contained at either the player or alliance level.
 
--
 
That's my 0.02, YMMV, etc etc.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 23:22
@Ruarc, thanks for clarifying, yeah I see what you're getting at. Illy used to have a lot more intrigue and politics and overall player activity than it currently has. There is no getting these old players back and I actually have no interest in forcing these inward-focused alliances to play in a different way.
I do believe that just having more players would make the game more vibrant. But perhaps you are right and it's just a different kind of game from what I wanted it to be. Maybe I've been playing for too long and it's time to move on.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 23:45
Originally posted by Ruarc Ruarc wrote:

What I'm suggesting is that the game is lacking the typical political dynamic present in most other mmo titles because the community is fundamentally focused on internal goals - typically self-contained at the alliance or player level and these goals require limited interaction with other people.

The community is focused on internal goals because there aren't any external goals. I have proclaimed that as a major deficit in Illyriad for years. It is perhaps the defining limiting factor on community competition.

Bulk rare materials are focused towards PvP equipment. Hunting materials can't really be controlled by anyone. The distribution of permanent valuable resources (rare herbs and rare minerals) is abundant and geographically diverse. The subset of useful materials--Iceheart, Ancient Oak, Spidertree Leaves, Giant Palm Leaves--is completely disconnected from the subset of limited resources that are possible to exclusively control (e.g. Silversteel, Amar Shards). The only material in both sets is Aterium, but the worldwide daily supply isn't useful for PvP, and the primary Arterium item is War Axes, which are almost completely destroyed when taking casualties. The other materials like Silversteel are crippled by a dependency on elemental salts, which are too rare and difficult to obtain to ever really be useful in large scale PvP.

TL;DR: the only rare substances that can be monopolized aren't worth controlling; the only rare substances worth controlling can't be effectively monopolized (due to abundance, dispersion, or being hunting byproducts).

Tournaments used to be the political currency of the realm. The server wars were partly fought over tournament dominance. Beyond that, there are no external points to control, and thus all community activity must be inward focused.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 01:30
This is a great game that could be better. Land claims are not a dev created or mechanic of the game and are not used to rank an alliance. Sov claims are the default ranking. Land claims become a disease that slowly kills an alliance. Clustering for support and defense is a good thing allowing others in ( without demands} allows for interaction, purging players from a recent claim hurts the growth of the game. if you close off a territory to expansion you also imprison your members who slowly atrophy from boredom. Then people start thinking of game cheating ways to keep inactive players. I am not arguing the right to do it. I am explaining the inevitable results of doing it.

This disease is spreading in elgea, as I write this.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 02:07
That is a steaming load of twaddle. Elgea had multiaccounting and permasitting before the Broken Lands release even existed, and land claims hadn't been conceived in their current form or scope. People abuse multiaccounting to get gold and supplies for tournaments and war. That phenomenon has nothing to do with land claims.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 02:10
land claims have been going on forever ten wake up


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 02:32
Originally posted by white willow white willow wrote:

land claims have been going on forever ten wake up

The biggest offenders of multiaccounting were not involved with land claims.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 03:27
You seem stuck on the one line about multi accounting which is rampant in any alliance that think they can get away with it.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 04:54
Ok, so let's agree that land claiming doesn't cause multiaccounting.

To your other points, you argue both ways. First that allowing people inside your zones creates positive interaction. Then that land claims strangle growth and create boredom. But if land claiming squeezes people into other regions, which become more densely populated as a result, then shouldn't those unclaimed regions be healthier and more active as a result?

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Ruarc
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 18:45
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Originally posted by Ruarc Ruarc wrote:

What I'm suggesting is that the game is lacking the typical political dynamic present in most other mmo titles because the community is fundamentally focused on internal goals - typically self-contained at the alliance or player level and these goals require limited interaction with other people.

The community is focused on internal goals because there aren't any external goals.
 
I think we're generally in agreement, right? Let me know if we're not.
 
Although, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no external goals. A goal to dominate the server as happens in other mmo strategy games is still there for instance. It doesn't not exist because the internal goals are more compelling than the external ones. What the difference does mean though is that it has cemented in the minds of the community that those external goals are not worth pursuing.

In practical terms though, sure, we can probably generally say that there aren't any external goals in Illy.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 19:14
What I don't get is how people don't get bored out of their minds in this game without external goals and much interaction between alliances. Past a certain point, what is there to do?


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 19:44
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Ok, so let's agree that land claiming doesn't cause multiaccounting.

To your other points, you argue both ways. First that allowing people inside your zones creates positive interaction. Then that land claims strangle growth and create boredom. But if land claiming squeezes people into other regions, which become more densely populated as a result, then shouldn't those unclaimed regions be healthier and more active as a result?


Exactly my point tens we agree unclaimed areas are much healthier. Giving people freedom to choose is a no brainer.


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 19:56
Ruarc you are right in that there is no end of game here no clear winners the closest thing to a winner currently is alliance rankings and there are to many obstacles for new players to catch up to players who started years ahead of them.

The one single event that made a difference in this game (the recent tourney results} was stukahs efforts to break the crow monoply on tourneys.


Posted By: Queen Bacet
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 20:59
Going back to changes i do think that more vans would enable players to help newbs a lot more.
Bringing down the level of the warehouse is a brilliant idea, as that warehouse drains the newer player of res to quickly and also means that at the start they have to build past 12 with their plots to be able to get out of the newb ring to then be drained again having to build it back up.



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