Court of Petitioners
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=10435
Printed Date: 19 Apr 2024 at 00:06
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Court of Petitioners
Posted By: Emerson
Subject: Court of Petitioners
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2018 at 20:18
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I would like a court of some sort to bring grievances to in
the event of bullying. Possibly set it up in Centrum with a link like “Petition
the court”. There are several members that, due to their size, seem to
think that nobody can or should stand in their way of taking land and cities as
they see fit. There are also some alliances with similar notions. Many small alliances and non-allied players are being
attacked in order for those players to acquire cities without having to build
them like the rest of us. My alliance is a small trade alliance – we did not
start playing Illyriad to be wiped out by the larger PvP players. We are not aggressors although we try to defend ourselves. None of the alliances that we have confederation agreements
with have come to our aid. General chat is where these bullies hang out, so
appealing to larger, older players gets us nowhere because the bullies are their
friends. We just become targets of other bullies. A “King’s Court” where the smaller players and alliances
could petition for aid would be a great addition to the game. The court could
gather forces to punish aggressors and assess penalties to the aggressors’
alliance – especially in the case of unprovoked attacks or undeclared wars.
Alliances must agree to abide by the rulings of the court (swear allegiance) or have their
alliance terminated. The court might also hand out penalties to alliances that
fail to come to the aid of alliances they have confederation agreements with. Most of these problems came about when the restrictions were
lifted on the number of cities a player could have. This is a solution that would
be in keeping with the time period of Illyriad and hopefully solve of few of
the bullying problems so that the more peaceful players can enjoy the game without being driven from it. |
Replies:
Posted By: SPQR
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2018 at 22:21
What you're proposing is for the game to enforce a certain play style on players by force. Such a addition will ruin the sandbox here, we have many types of players who have a style of their own thus it's a rediculous suggestion.
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Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2018 at 23:21
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Courts imply laws; laws imply enforcement; enforcement implies sufficient power for military confrontation. All you're really trying to do is get other people to fight on your behalf, and give that intervention the veneer of legitimacy. No real alliance is going to sign away their ability to make strategic decisions to some Illyriad world government (or court, or whatever you want to call it). If you have a specific complaint, then make it clear. Vague wording about bullies and GC is completely unhelpful to anyone who might offer you assistance. ------------- Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies. |
Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 03:36
This. ------------- 
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Ten Kulch wrote:Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 17:42
| I actually been thinking that corrupted court of king Sigur would be fun addition to the game. Voting With bribery and dagger diplomacy and representatives. I suppose that is not actually what you where thinking. |
Posted By: WAFFLES
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 21:23
| This sounds like another player who has had a beat down by another player. The server is littered with the anti bullying crowd. How do you expect to play games if there is no thrill of conflict or a chance of loss? This post is a perfect example of all that is wrong in the game. |
Posted By: The Reaper
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 21:57
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Sounds like a lot of whining. This can't be said enough, you play a sandbox game. With many a different playstyle. Welcome to the Sandbox. Now commence the continuous whining. -Drax The Destroyer
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Posted By: Emerson
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 20:52
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About what I figured. You older players don't want to give up any power so you can continue to lord it over the newer, smaller players. This is precisely why a court is needed. You that are attacking me here are the same types attacking the smaller, mostly defenseless players and alliances. Maybe not you, specifically, but you know them - they are your friends that have been playing for years right along with you. They like things just the way they are because they can get away with whatever they want. Fine - be that way. It's a childish attitude to claim this is a sandbox and I'm whining. This is the kind of garbage I see in GC and what I was referring to in my post. Thank you for clearing that up. The consensus I have been getting in my message box (and there are a lot of them) is this idea is a good one but the older players will ridicule me for it (they nailed that one) and others that have basically given up, quit their alliance and are waiting to be wiped out by a player that wants their cities. Sad. If beating up on smaller players is your thing, why not go play Age of Empires, Civilization or Mortal Kombat? Why can't we have a semblance of law in Illyriad? What would be the harm? Sure, it changes strategies and, maybe, a little of the balance of power. Would that really be so bad? Let the insults and ridiculing start now.
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Posted By: WAFFLES
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 21:19
| Emerson you have 7 cities and around 67k pop. I am wondering how you are being “bullied”. I don’t know your specific gaming style. Maybe being more active and building troops might keep other players from messing with you. I see you are in a Trader alliance. Those alliances usually have nice things. Like gold. Banks have lots of money. They also have guards, alarm systems, and vaults. Have you gone to your allies for help? |
Posted By: Hyde
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 21:32
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People play illy to have freedom and "live out a fantasy" whether it is a rich crafter, huge warlord, or magnificent empire builder. Some come to socialise, or to help people. For someone to add in real life restrictions such as a "court" on what people can or can't do, it ruins the escapism that the game provides. It would drive more people away than make people happy. |
Posted By: Ruarc
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 21:46
Three brief points and an overall comment: 1. You always need a better argument than 'why not?'. 2. What you're suggesting isn't any different from the current situation: those with power dictate the 'laws' of the game. Power comes in many forms - diplomacy, resources, activity - but the idea that you can dictate the 'laws' of the game without that power, or that people will give you that power because it makes sense or is fair, is naive. 3. I think you shot yourself in the foot by using the word 'law'. You'd have had a far better chance of making a relatable argument to the current meta if you stuck to a more accurate phase like 'conventions' and referenced things like the 10 square rule and not attacking new players, or made specific comment as to what you wanted to have happen within the new meta. Basing your argument on something concrete is better than offering a vague new contraption with prickly words like 'law' to replace tried and tested methods of diplomacy and power. On a general note - I assume that what you're actually getting at has something to do with land claims? Some alliances have been more accommodating in that than others, but it's difficult to comment on any particular situation without specifics. Personally I think this is a particularly interesting time to be playing the game. Maybe not as interesting as the first land claims in the BL (heady days indeed!) but interesting nonetheless. Some long-established notions no longer have the power behind them that they once did. That change is testimony to the fact that Illyriad is still an evolving and active game, and that's a good thing irrespective of the outcome of that change.
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Posted By: WAFFLES
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 22:15
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I have it on good authority this involves SIN. Apparently an alliance reacted a little roughly against a very small players indiscretions and SIN retaliated for the smaller player. Now that alliance is crying foul. In regards to Ruarc’s comments, I agree with his points. Laws require a means of enforcement. |
Posted By: Emerson
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 22:58
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The situation with SIN was within the context of the "old" rules that can be found in the forum's dusty archives. A player attacked an alliance member, unprovoked, and the alliance retaliated and punished the offender. That was convention and should have been an end to it. The offender apparently bitched about it and SIN attacked the alliance. Fair? No. But it happened, it's over with. Should it have happened? Probably not, but who does the alliance go to when the leadership of SIN refused to even acknowledge the situation? Hence my point. Ruarc's point about laws requiring enforcement is valid. But when there are no laws and "convention" is ignored or laughed at, then what? I put forth an idea - only an idea. No hard and fast "rules", nothing like that. If the Devs consider it, great. If not, we play on. However, it cannot be ignored that the game has changed a lot since 2012, 2014, 2015, etc. I just started 10 months ago and the game has morphed a bit since then. Newbies are looking at the forum for insight and are told to chat in GC for help. Yet, I have witnessed exchanges about how the tournaments are boring, they don't come often enough and how some have bragged about waiting for the protective rainbow to come off a newbie so they can grab their city. Is this what everybody really wants? Have I witnessed this happening? No. But the idea that someone would actually post something like that in GC and his/her friends just laughed it off is unsettling. I am representing the small players, the players that want to play the game in peace. I'm probably large enough to take care of myself. But we have members in our alliance with less than 3 cities and 5K population that are not interested in PvP. Our alliance cannot help them if they are attacked - we couldn't defend an attack by a choirboy at this time. The thing is, they are relying on the conventions established years ago and finding, to their detriment, that the older, larger players no longer adhere to those conventions that don't directly benefit them. So, where is the redress? Everyone is criticizing my idea, yet I don't see any constructive arguments being put forward. How about trying to add to the narrative in a positive way instead of just tearing me down? I'm open to suggestions and maybe, just maybe, we can all come up with a consensus idea that we can put to the Devs.
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Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 23:09
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This entire argument has crossed into the absurd. Emerson, the powerful alliances are not obligated to give you power simply because you think you should have it. There are many accepted customs in Illyriad. Small players and new players are very rarely attacked without a reason. The fact that you have provided no details about your situation--other than that you feel "bullied"--makes me think that your mouth wrote some checks that your armies can't cash. Just the way you accused people of supporting bullying, without even telling us who the bullies are, rather supports that assumption. Nobody steals cities from newer, active players. There are hundreds of high quality inactive and abandoned cities scattered across the map. Your entire vague explanation rings false. ------------- Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies. |
Posted By: Emerson
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 23:38
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Where did I ask for power, Ten Kulch? Once again, I am attacked but no constructive ideas are given. You assume that I feel bullied, yet I never said that. I clarified my situation above: I am representing the small players and alliances that do feel bullied. You ask me for specifics but give none of your own. Nobody steals cities from newer, active players? How do you know? Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it fact. However, I DID see those posts in GC about a month or so ago. Just because I can't recall WHO posted them, that means I'm lying? You make a lot of assumptions about me and my situation. Instead of ripping me apart, how about some nice, positive constructive ideas? Obviously you don't agree with mine, so what would be your solution? Status quo? Well, that works for you. If you queried every player in Illyriad, I'm betting you get a different answer.
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Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 23:57
I have played this game for six years. Most people capturing cities prefer completed research, which is available in established cities, such as those afforded by established inactive or abandoned accounts. I also helped to run a training alliance for quite a while. During that time, I came into contact with many new players. Nobody ever complained about having cities seized by other players, nor did anyone even mention having heard of that happening. There is no real incentive and considerable downside (in the form of community retaliation), so it isn't really done. I cannot conclusively prove the absence of something with 100% certainty. That is logically impossible. However, given my knowledge of the game, new players, and the community, I feel confident saying that the situation you propose is a very rare occurrence, if indeed it happens at all. Due to the way that logic works, you can much more easily prove a positive assertion. You are the one in a position to disprove my perception, since offering actual evidence that a new player was attacked to sieze their city would be an actual data point. ------------- Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies. |
Posted By: Mr. Ubiquitous Feral
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:00
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Start over, Emerson. Tell us what actually happened and who was involved. Facts, please. As far as people talking in GC, I see it too. It is people joking with each other. They aren't really going to take from a newb unless the newb is an alt or the newb is a troll. And stop changing the story. Tell the truth and stick to it. ------------- I am a Machine. |
Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:03
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My suggestion is to leave things exactly as they are. It boils down to the same old discussion: do traders/crafters have the right to live in peace? Imho the answer is only if they can manage to preserve that peace themselves (by military might, shrewd diplomacy, bribes, whatever). So, if it happens that trading alliance nr.1248 with 4 members that login roughly twice a week runs afoul of a major military alliance they need to find a way to deal with that without looking to the devs to solve their problems. On a sidenote: It may sound harsh, but sometimes alliances are just not viable. There are a ridiculous amount of tiny alliances that all proclaim to have more or less the same values (mostly: we are a peaceful alliance of traders...) and yet they insist on remaining seperate entities devoid of even the slightest influence. |
Posted By: Emerson
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:17
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I have no problem with your experience. In fact, I've gained a lot of knowledge from your blog. Just as you cannot conclusively prove the absence of something with 100% certainty, I don't have total recall or photographic memory so I can't give you names of players making those posts in GC. Let's not belabor the point. As for community retaliation, I would like to believe that. It would be nice, but most of the members of our alliance believe that asking for help against unprovoked military or diplo attacks in GC just paints a target on our backs. There have been 3 incidents in just the past 5 months against our alliance with no provocation on our part. We were following convention like we were supposed to. But those are over and done with. Assurances that the community will protect those with no ambition to play PvP are well and good until the attacks happen. My idea was to have a form of redress - formalized - that players and alliances can use to ask for help, be it the community at large or a sovereign power. You, as an older player, must have some ideas that will work without completely turning Illyriad on its head. That's all I'm asking for here.
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Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:39
Nobody assures that. The community standard is that we don't assault new players, excluding ones with atrocious manners. Established alliances and players are on their own. Sometimes white knights will ride to rescue victims of injustice, but that's largely just a fanciful notion proposed by irrelevant parties.
1. Excerise good diplomacy. If you are severely outmatched by an opponent, then I recommend deference and a painful degree of politeness. Focusing on the unfairness is counterproductive. 2. Don't refuse to roll over unless you can withstand the consequences of fighting. 3. GC and the forums are worse than useless for getting military aid. Normally all it does is inflame or delight the attacker. Back channels are best for courting allies. Incidentally, you should have allies before you actually require them. Nobody wants to risk consequences from trying to save a doomed situation. The best way to have allies is to be an attractive ally yourself. Your overall assumption is that some kind of NPC "court" would help you. But any game mechanism is likely to be dominated by the most powerful alliances. The best solution is to deal with these kinds of situations gracefully, because lacking military power, your personal abilities at diplomacy are the only thing standing between your alliance and ruin. ------------- Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies. |
Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:47
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The court of public opinion is not to be underestimated. It can rally others to counter what is viewed as unjust and it can be used to attach a negative label to individuals who prefer to wear their crazy on their sleeves for all to see. No further in-game mechanic necessary to "right" perceived "wrongs". -------------
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Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 01:32
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The court of public opinion in this game is limited to lynch mobs against players who are already unable to defend themselves. That phenomenon, I have seen many times. To counter a strong adversary in this game, you need either actual strength or impeccable diplomacy. ------------- Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies. |
Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 16:53
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I've always marveled at the all-newb alliances in Illy. Players want to strike it out on their own in a persistent and well-populated world without having any experience, connections, or resources, and then go whine on the forums and appeal to non-existing "laws" the minute they get messed with. In another game, you'd be farmed the minute your little city popped up on the map. In Illyriad, new players by convention are given a wide berth and showered with resources. But how long should this conventional "rainbow" last and should it cover not just individual players but entire alliances? At some point, you have to embrace the fact that it's a game that has things like military action built into it. This is not a zero friction game by design, so just toughen up a little and investigate your options out of this conflict. I'm afraid they've narrowed down considerably since your post. |
Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 18:29
To be fair, in other games there is value to farming new players. Usually advancement requires increasing amounts of basic resources that imply either farming or real money purchases. Other titles encourage the capture of cities from other players. What I think people miss about Illyriad is that it has a rich meta-game. There aren't precious resources to control, there is little value to farming weaker alliances. Most interaction is purely voluntary. Therefore, Illyriad is about relationships. Intentionally existing in a vacuum is a terrible idea in this game. ------------- Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies. |
Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 20:28
| I agree that there is no game mechanics value in farming newbs and that's probably the main reason why it's pretty much non-existent in Illy. The side effect of this lack of threat is that it breeds a certain sense of complacency and even an expectation that you won't be attacked. Ever. |
Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 12:36
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Well I could see a situation with illy mechanics that expansive "old" alliance would capture cities that get fully researched and big enough from nb alliance(s) but actually since there is so much quitting players I have never had to build research myself after first 5 towns. |