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20FEB18 - Defy Death Update

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: News & Announcements
Forum Name: Announcements
Forum Description: Changes, patch release dates, server launch dates, downtime notifications etc.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=10409
Printed Date: 16 Nov 2018 at 18:04
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 20FEB18 - Defy Death Update
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Subject: 20FEB18 - Defy Death Update
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 20:57
Hi Everyone,

An update/patch to the commander Defy Death skill (Military skill tree).

We've recently received reports that the commander skill Defy Death works erratically, and/or over/under-enthusiastically, in bursts.

Commanders with a Level 10 Defy Death should only survive 10% of the time, however (anecdotally) we've been told that in most battles, when one commander belonging to a player army dies, most all of them die; when one commander survives in the same player army, most all of them survive.

We looked at the historical logs, and this anecdote proves true.

This was a code issue that has been in place since commanders were introduced to the game back in 2010 and has affected all players, attackers or defenders, with equal likelihood, in every combat.

Having delved into the codentrails, and after extensive consultation with the Norse God of Mischief, I've determined that the error was in the RNG (Random Number Generator), which wasn't providing as random a number as we would have expected.  If that's not oxymoronic.

Therefore, I've rewritten the RNG and deployed it to live, and it is now truly random - or at least as random as any logic-based computorial system can be.  Please feel free to reply with any ramblings you may have about pseudo-RNGs, chaos theory, ordered systems and/or the Second Law of Thermodynamics below.

The (few) other systems that depend on RNG (such as diplomatic chances, theft etc) were unaffected by this bug; and continue as before.

Also, during the investigation, it appears that commanders were *much* more likely to survive, with a likelihood getting close to 50% in certain circumstances.  Of course, the stated aim of Defy Death is a 1% chance per level, up to a maximum of 10% at Level 10, and this is now in place and working as it should; so please do expect a more realistic 1-in-10 chance of surviving at L10 Defy Death.

We're actively monitoring the new RNG and the diceroll outcomes it provides at a statistically significant level, and it appears to be working as it should, now. As things stand (the new RNG has been running for a few days) we have data from 11,817 commander Defy Death rolls, and 1,138 of them are <= 10%, which seems statistically significantly likely that things are now working as intended.

tldr; The random number generator for deciding whether military commanders should Defy Death or not was a bit broken, and has been weird ever since commanders were introduced to the game.  This has now been fixed, and commanders should now Defy Death in keeping with the expected 1% per level of the Defy Death skill, at an individual level of granularity.

Best wishes,

SC




Replies:
Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 21:23
I would venture to say that most of us with the Defy Death skill had obtained it based on the anecdotal experience of it working, a lot. 

It's not worth the additional 10 hours resurrect time at a mere 10%.

Is there any hope of a returning those levels en masse so that people can choose where, or whether, to reapply the points on their commanders?


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 21:26
Originally posted by Solanar Solanar wrote:


Is there any hope of a returning those levels en masse so that people can choose where, or whether, to reapply the points on their commanders?

Nope, sorry.  

The Defy Death skill now does what it said it would do, rather than what it accidentally did back in the day :)

Best,

SC


Posted By: Telios
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 22:04
Any chance there could be a "respec" option added?  With a cost of course.


Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 22:06
@ Telios, there already is, but it's 15 prestige per commander. 1125 prestige to respec just the commanders on this account, not even including my alt, seems a steep price to pay. 


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 22:29
Very happy to see this game mechanic get fixed. The unintended Defy Death behavior was making elite Heroism commanders into undying killing machines. I've already observed a return to balanced gameplay after the patch. Many thanks to GM Stormcrow and his team for investigating the strange results.

Solanar, if the Defy Death correction is an issue, then it seems like a great time to build some new commanders.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 05:33
Great to see it fixed. I would however like to see the commander level also play a role. It makes sense that the higher the commanders level the greater warrior he should be. Perhaps adding an extra 1% chance of survival per commander level might make people more willing to get commanders to high levels.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Almost Balanced
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 10:14
All in all, I welcome the resolution of this problem.

I hope that you will do something with the gold, t2 and t3 resources traffic in the next medium term, and by 2023 at the latest.
Schooling and salary traders are very expensive, so their education does not pay.
It is much cheaper to buy all kinds of goods on the black market, which is unobtrusively advertised via the GC, and on the pages of this forum (occasionally)
Someone has already suggested something like this.
Limit or completely ban traffic with gold, t2, and t3 resources out of the legal market.
Be more generous to the players, increase the welcome prizes, give them to the top three cities.





Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 17:46
GM Stormcrow, thank you very much for fixing this bug!

Almost Balanced, this is a laundry list all of your own.
I don't think most players have a problem with training traders. Your proposal to limit or completely ban the traffic of advanced res and gold is super problematic. What happens if you need to distribute advanced resources between your cities - do you now have to get every transaction through the hub? There isn't that much of a problem with black market anyway, and trade still exists through trade hubs, you just need to put your traders in the hubs that are actually active. Granted, trade is really sluggish in this game but it's not in fact because of black markets. It's because of the glut of resource farms that creates ongoing deflation.

Get yourself into a good alliance if you need more resources.

If our devs would implement some new features out of the ginormous wish list the player base already has created, I think picking a few top demands and making a poll would be the most gracious way to go about it.


Posted By: Almost Balanced
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 18:24
I expect different opinions.Solving this problem all the "sat" accounts makes them useless.


I am in good,very good alliance.
Have and producing enough for my needs, too small for trader



Posted By: Almost Balanced
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 18:34
Sat acc becoming useless, sorry five mins limit.


Posted By: Hyde
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 19:32
I agree with Gragnog's point. I believe before this was fixed, there was a correlation to commander level and defy death success rate? I rarely saw the big commanders die but smaller commanders seemed to drop like flies, and was one of the only reasons to push for the big level commanders. With the right skills assigned commanders are functional after level 35-55, and any extra just lead to longer revive times.
 
Maybe just a 0.5%-1% chance of survival per level would just be a better thing to do rather than have Defy Death as a skill?


Posted By: Morose
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 20:10
Personally I think defy death is pointless as currently constituted, but there should be no complaints that it was fixed to reflect what the skill actually was labeled to do.

The ability to send wave upon wave of undying commanders that properly equipped are equivalent to approx 1k troops per was a severe imbalance.  At least now you are forced to resurrect and lose commander equipment.


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https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/372651" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 20:56
Originally posted by Morose Morose wrote:

Personally I think defy death is pointless as currently constituted, but there should be no complaints that it was fixed to reflect what the skill actually was labeled to do.

I think that Morose has encapsulated it entirely, above.  

The first thing is to fix the skill (ie get it to do what it says on the tin), but I'm more than happy to entertain suggestions as to how it could be changed (or, indeed, how other things could be changed to make commander level more directly relevant to combat prowess - for example, commander damage multipliers by level).  There are lots of options open to us; but I can say with certainty that practically unkill-able commanders wasn't part of the Illy masterplan.

Clearly there's a balance question, and we all need to be careful with meddling with powers we don't fully understand whilst pouring oil on the troubled waters inside the Pandora's Box on top of the upset applecart that rampages through the proverbial china shop.

Sensible suggestions for commander changes are more than welcome, but not if they're tending back towards the 'immortal death machine' end of the spectrum.  

Best,

SC



Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 23:00
The only scenario you really have to avoid is the one where elite attack commanders can be recycled without interruption. That's what allowed 61 troops per army to be multiplied into 1000 effective attackers. As a one-shot attack that's fine, but game balance breaks down if it can be repeated a dozen times without failing the check. Even an individual Defy Death rate of 50% would be workable, as long as the check is fully independent per commander.

Large army commanders and defensive commanders can't really be exploited the same way, just because of how those mechanics work.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: spektor
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 00:07
I agree that 10% is pretty darn useless compared to the 10 extra hours of resurrect time.

Here is a suggestion that I believe retains a semblance of balance, usefulness, and simplicity. Greatly increase the chance of a successful roll per skill level, but then modify that chance by the commander's pre-battle HP, less than 100. So a commander with 1 HP, only has 1% of the original chance to defy death again.



Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 00:17
This change may also impact the efficiency of sudden violent choking incidents?


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 00:20
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

The only scenario you really have to avoid is the one where elite attack commanders can be recycled without interruption.

Agreed.  

But even at a (suggested a few posts above) rate of 0.5% additional Defy Death per Commander Level, there are some commanders in the Lvl 200 range that would already exceed the Defy Death limits to become essentially immortal.  

We could ofc scale it logarithmically/exponentially in some way, so stacking penalties apply.  Skill caps are another way to go; but all these have benefits/detriments to be argued.  Anyone who's ever looked at a tax code knows what I'm talking about; what to apply, where (and why) and what the thresholds are :)

I really like the idea of rewarding a player who has a Lvl 100+ commander (or indeed a 200+; yes, they do exist!).  I think that it's awesome that people have actually focused on attaining these genuinely extraordinary achievements.  However, I'd also not want to break the game in rewarding them.

Suggestions are most welcome!

Best,

SC


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 01:33
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

The only scenario you really have to avoid is the one where elite attack commanders can be recycled without interruption.

Agreed.  

But even at a (suggested a few posts above) rate of 0.5% additional Defy Death per Commander Level, there are some commanders in the Lvl 200 range that would already exceed the Defy Death limits to become essentially immortal.  

We could ofc scale it logarithmically/exponentially in some way, so stacking penalties apply.  Skill caps are another way to go; but all these have benefits/detriments to be argued.  Anyone who's ever looked at a tax code knows what I'm talking about; what to apply, where (and why) and what the thresholds are :)

I really like the idea of rewarding a player who has a Lvl 100+ commander (or indeed a 200+; yes, they do exist!).  I think that it's awesome that people have actually focused on attaining these genuinely extraordinary achievements.  However, I'd also not want to break the game in rewarding them.

Suggestions are most welcome!

Best,

SC
This is a report before the patch went live. As you will see from the second image, these commanders are high level. Each have defy death maxed, yet none of them lived. I would have though at least one of these would have survived based on the mechanic as it was at that time, and having bonuses for high level commanders is a very good idea. 

Its a risk v reward for the commanders, if they are more overpowered as they get to higher levels, the down side is, if they die, they take a very long time to revive. Basically if you get a level 200 commander and you give him a bonus of double division % bonus, you will want to look after it because if it dies, its going to take over a week to revive. Everything has a tradeoff and as a player you have to take a risk in which tradeoff path you will go down. 






Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 02:04
What if the level 200+ commander had a high survival rate but had to march back?  or perhaps he survived but had to march back injured like caravans do. 

At such a high level I would rather wait on a 2-5 day march than a 200 hr respawn and it would be somewhat more similar to what would really happen if a soldier survived the battle.  

Bad part is against sieges you would still end up in a lot of very rapid elite attacks.  So perhaps rather than a slow walk back there would be a paused walk back.  Say place an encampment on a neighboring square for 1 hr before the walk back begins this would also give the option of killing the commander through another battle.  

No idea how hard it would be to code these things though. 





Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 03:58
The simple solution would be to raise Defy Death from 1% per level to 5%.

As long as the rolls are truly independent--which the fixed RNG code should ensure--any attempt to spam elite Heroism commanders will quickly run out of steam.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 05:42
I also like the idea of rewarding for high level commanders, but increasing the DD skill for high level commanders to approach 100% survival is not very appealing. Immortal commanders really do break the game. Even one hour pause like DeathDealer suggested provides almost no cushion against elite attacks during a siege.

At the same time, these super-commanders are so impractical due to the revival times that it makes sense to sweeten up the deal - after all it's not that easy to get that much XP!

Perhaps instead of increasing DD, there could be a different bonus that kicks in past a certain commander level, somewhere around 40-50, and keeps increasing every level until it reaches 80-90%. It could be a recovery speed-up bonus that's adjusted by the ratio of the defense/attack scores in the combat that has killed the commander.
 
Example
. Level 50 commander, 10% speed recovery bonus reduces the resurrection time by 5 hours. The commander was used to hunt a myriad rats, got unexpectedly killed, and the attack/defense score ratio was 0.8. The resulting bonus is 10% x 0.8 = 8%.

For a high level commander a maxed out recovery bonus (e.g. 80%), resurrection time would be slashed by near-80% in a close combat. But the more uneven the combat, the less resurrection time would be reduced, eventually reverting to what it would be without the bonus. Even if the ratio was 1:100 or lower, the recovery bonus might need a floor around 1-2% so that the super-commander still gets just a little bit of an edge.

For commanders in defensive armies where multiple armies are stacked on a square, the recovery bonus would be calculated as base recovery bonus x (attack/total defense of the stack).  


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 05:54
Spektor's idea is good too - increase the defy death roll but then throttle it either by pre-combat HP or by the defense/attack scores ratio, so that "death by many paper cuts" tactitioners get penalized.


Posted By: Hucbold
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 19:16
Sigh!

I suppose that if you play a game long enough, you eventually get to play all roles available. To date I have never attacked the devs but here goes.

Defy death worked in a particular way. It may not have been the way intended but it had worked that way for 8 years. Wars had been won or lost on these mechanics. Strategies had been developed on these mechanics. It was the same for everyone. The 10% survival rate is not worth the 10 hours revival time - for me to reset my live commanders will cost me 1350 prestige - no thanks!

In the middle of a war, at the behest of The SINdicate, the devs have altered the dynamics to reduce the effectiveness of elite attacks against big sieging armies without consulting the game at large. Its effect, if not its intent, favours one side. It stinks.

Another thing in the game which is not as intended is the level of bare faced trolling that goes on - from the game rules: posts with the intent to provoke or disrupt other players aka "trolling" are not allowed. Over the past few months, I have been taunted, called names, had sexual innuendos made against me and generally trolled at an industrial level that goes way beyond fair comment or analysis of my game tactics and the devs only response is to suggest I block these people in GC, so I cannot see myself being trolled but everyone else can.

Double sigh!


Posted By: AdmiralRage
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 19:46
How about creating an gear item that can improves defy death? Like 25%? That way an elite commander could get an extra 50% in survivability in addition to to base 10%. There would be a drawback to adding more survivability as you wouldn't be able to gear combat items. If that doesn't work, then I think defy death needs to be increased to 5% or something.


Posted By: Blankit
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 20:00
+1 to AdmiralRage's idea of defy death boosting gear.

As Almost Balanced shared his unrelated laundry list, I think I also get to get mine cleared.

You know what's cooler than a commander? A general. Each town gets two generals, and only a multi-divisional army gets can have a general (as there can be only two multi-divisional armies from a town). And since stuck-up generals only talk to commanders, their ability should only aid commanders. It can be this defy death, or a whole bunch of other things.


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---E ---E Now selling pitchforks at The Pitchfork -Emporium. ---E ---E


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 20:07
Triple sigh!!!!!!!

Just when we thought it was safe Huc comes back with more complaining. The devs actually do sometimes fix blatant flaws in the game. War is where most flaws are found. Deal with it. This is not the first war where flaws were identified and fixed.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 20:13
Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:

I have been taunted, called names, had sexual innuendos made against me and generally trolled at an industrial level that goes way beyond fair comment or analysis of my game tactics and the devs only response is to suggest I block these people in GC, so I cannot see myself being trolled but everyone else can.

On behalf of the colonist empire I would like to respond to the disturbing revelations made in today's forum post by Hucbold. No player, regardless of gender, should suffer sexual innuendo to the point of feeling harassed. I hope that the entire community comes together to prevent such a tragic event from occurring again. #huctoo


Posted By: Morose
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 20:24
My only comment is this:

In any game, basing strategy on game bugs is considered exploiting and bad form.  I understand the frustration of something being broken for so long, but like any exploit it WILL get fixed eventually.  No matter what side you may be on, the ability to send wave after wave of commanders that never die and are as powerful as a thousand troops each is downright game breaking.

A town under siege could send 5 commanders and 240-750 troops every 25 minutes against a siege over and over and over again.  Those troops would hit 10 times over their power level, thereby giving the defending player tens of thousands of essentially free troops.  The fact that this is even an outrage that it is fixed is mind boggling.

You can read what the description says.  You know what it is supposed to do.  Even if it didn't work that way, you chose to exploit a bug for your own gain.


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https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/372651" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: GM Cerberus
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 20:52
Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:


Another thing in the game which is not as intended is the level of bare faced trolling that goes on - from the game rules: posts with the intent to provoke or disrupt other players aka "trolling" are not allowed. Over the past few months, I have been taunted, called names, had sexual innuendos made against me and generally trolled at an industrial level that goes way beyond fair comment or analysis of my game tactics and the devs only response is to suggest I block these people in GC, so I cannot see myself being trolled but everyone else can.



I'd like to take a moment to address this.  

If we ever see any form of harassment or receive reports of harassment, we take the offenses and accusations very seriously and will investigate and dole out punishment as necessary.  As a rule, we do not discuss said punishment with anyone but the offender.  We also make recommendations to the person being harassed that they block the person harassing them, it is the entire reason the block function exists.  If someone is harassing you or saying something you find offensive your first step should be to block them, and then send us a report about the offender so that we can investigate the allegation.

I'd like to point everyone to this thread:  https://forum.illyriad.co.uk/chat-and-community-enforcement-information_topic10398.html " rel="nofollow - https://forum.illyriad.co.uk/chat-and-community-enforcement-information_topic10398.html  ; Which covers our enforcement policy.  Namely: No one on the GM staff will discuss publicly, or with individuals in private, the reasons for moderation, silencing or the status of suspended accounts with anyone other than the account holder themselves. 

To claim that we do nothing about harassment is irresponsible and is a claim founded on not having all the facts.  The only time you will ever see that someone has been silenced is if the automated profanity filter catches someone; if it is a GM Silence that silence is between the GM and the offender.

Regards,

GM Cerberus


Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 21:07
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

The simple solution would be to raise Defy Death from 1% per level to 5%.

As long as the rolls are truly independent--which the fixed RNG code should ensure--any attempt to spam elite Heroism commanders will quickly run out of steam.

Simple is good.  

Of course, some of us math-inclined types enjoy a good expression with numerous variables.  As the blue GM mentioned earlier there needs to be a boundary (or asymptote) to avoid creating an indestructible commander.  For each level of Defy Death (currently 1%) can be raised to 5% per level through other bonuses, a number were mentioned in this thread (scroll up, ignore excessive textual sighing).

Potential bonuses to increase Defy Death:
  • Number of hit points (add positive bonus).
  • Measure of beat-down, was the failing army greatly outnumbered? (removes potential bonus)
  • Total level of the commander (add positive bonus).
Other suggestions:
  • Make the death-defying commander take the long walk home stripped of all gear.
  • Do not permit the commander to regenerate hit points until they return home (only when defying death).
Kids Remember: Never attempt to re-seed your random number generator within the same second, it will only re-start the "random" stream at the same number.

Good luck!


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Posted By: Jabob
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 21:42
I like the idea of defy death gear.  Make it a mount.  Give it a % added to defy death.  If the commanders defy death skill fires have the mount take the hit instead of the commander, thus killing the mount (destroyed no chance to scavenge) and make the commander walk home.  Use some of the unused herbs, minerals or anatomies in the game for the mount recipe.  And you could even make a quest to get the recipe (just not one like Audrey that no one can figure out.)


Posted By: Blankit
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 22:05
Originally posted by Jabob Jabob wrote:

I like the idea of defy death gear.  Make it a mount.  Give it a % added to defy death.  If the commanders defy death skill fires have the mount take the hit instead of the commander, thus killing the mount (destroyed no chance to scavenge) and make the commander walk home.  Use some of the unused herbs, minerals or anatomies in the game for the mount recipe.  And you could even make a quest to get the recipe (just not one like Audrey that no one can figure out.)


Or better, turn that steady warhorse into something useful.


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---E ---E Now selling pitchforks at The Pitchfork -Emporium. ---E ---E


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 22:19
Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:

Sigh!



Another thing in the game which is not as intended is the level of bare faced trolling that goes on - from the game rules: posts with the intent to provoke or disrupt other players aka "trolling" are not allowed. Over the past few months, I have been taunted, called names, had sexual innuendos made against me and generally trolled at an industrial level that goes way beyond fair comment or analysis of my game tactics and the devs only response is to suggest I block these people in GC, so I cannot see myself being trolled but everyone else can.

Double sigh!

The ironic thing about your claim here is that you are trying to play the victim when you are the instigator, over the past few months, I myself have been labelled, Nazi, Terrorist, and the latest one from you yourseld applied to TCOL, ethinic cleansers. You want to come on here and cry foul when you are the one that started it all in this very forum for it, even asked by GM Cerb to stop. This supposed level of trolling is a creature you can call your own, as I have been harassed with those labels above myself since the very start of this war and you were the one that started it (check the numerous forum posts of your own for reference), im not going to cry about as you do, I  just fight back.  
As such you still have one of your towns named after one of the worst ethnic cleansing events that has ever occurred, maybe you should reflect on your own actions before hurling accusations at others. 



Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 23:41
Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:

Defy death worked in a particular way. It may not have been the way intended but it had worked that way for 8 years. Wars had been won or lost on these mechanics.

Name one. A war that was won or lost on the Defy Death mechanic doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:

Strategies had been developed on these mechanics. ... In the middle of a war, at the behest of The SINdicate, the devs have altered the dynamics to reduce the effectiveness of elite attacks against big sieging armies without consulting the game at large. Its effect, if not its intent, favours one side. It stinks.

"Strategy" is generous. You discovered an exploitable bug, and instead of reporting it, you chose to systematically abuse that bug across two dozen different accounts. That stinks. There should be no sympathy for anyone who exploited that bug. Do you really think the devs should allow you to continue abusing a code malfunction to create an actual advantage in the game? "Everyone can use it," is not an acceptable argument. They squashed the bug, case closed.

For those wondering, the Defy Death bug wasn't a game-breaking problem until the 5x equipment update. That update poured gasoline on the spark, allowing a 61 troop army with 4 deathless commanders to attack like 1000 troops. As a single shot gambit that's fine. Exploiting the defect to strike over and over without waiting for resurrection time (the intended balancing factor) made the knowledge of how to systematically trigger the bug more valuable than all the troops you were producing in your cities.

At that point, you fix the bug, period.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: AdmiralRage
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 00:16
Steering away from bashing on Hucbold's complaining, I also don't think we should try to "balance" low level commanders and high level commanders. I think high level commanders should have an inherent advantage. 
You could make a case that having 20 dead commanders at level 25 ready to go within an hour is playing the system. Not that I think that should go away, I think there needs to be more incentive to have high level commanders.


Posted By: Blankit
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 00:36
Originally posted by AdmiralRage AdmiralRage wrote:

Steering away from bashing on Hucbold's complaining, I also don't think we should try to "balance" low level commanders and high level commanders. I think high level commanders should have an inherent advantage.


Some people want that balancing because they either think that it will help in emergency (which it should not), or because they think it will help new players (who have no chance of surviving against someone who has played even 6 months with or without this balancing).


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---E ---E Now selling pitchforks at The Pitchfork -Emporium. ---E ---E


Posted By: OssianII
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 15:43
This thread is turning into another bash Hucbold fest from the alliances who deliberately go out of their way to personally harass, humiliate and deride other players at every opportunity. There is no need for us tolerate this anymore. We should keep a record and report it. Where there is long delay in GM's  taking action on these reports then we should band together and force their hand! Some of these practises must stop before this game gets a reputation. 


Posted By: Morose
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 16:46
Originally posted by OssianII OssianII wrote:

This thread is turning into another bash Hucbold fest from the alliances who deliberately go out of their way to personally harass, humiliate and deride other players at every opportunity. There is no need for us tolerate this anymore. We should keep a record and report it. Where there is long delay in GM's  taking action on these reports then we should band together and force their hand! Some of these practises must stop before this game gets a reputation. 

Ossian, this thread was a discussion of the fixed exploit regarding Defy Death.  Hucbold then derided SIN, blaming them for influencing the GM to fix a known exploit in the game that he admitted to using as part of their strategy.  The simple fact of the matter is that Defy Death was not working properly.  The period of time it was not working properly does not matter, and using the fact that it was not working as intended is an exploit plain as day.  

I do not see how that wouldn't be construed as his fault, and while he may have a point in the length of time in which this went unfixed, he is absolutely wrong in his assertion that it had some malicious intent to punish him behind it.  

TLDR - Defy Death was broken, now it's fixed, some people are mad that they can no longer exploit the fact that it's broken but it was never labeled to do anything more than it does now so the burden of the consequences are on them.


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https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/372651" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Zenorra
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 18:01
Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:

Sigh!

Another thing in the game which is not as intended is the level of bare faced trolling that goes on - from the game rules: posts with the intent to provoke or disrupt other players aka "trolling" are not allowed. Over the past few months, I have been taunted, called names, had sexual innuendos made against me and generally trolled at an industrial level that goes way beyond fair comment or analysis of my game tactics and the devs only response is to suggest I block these people in GC, so I cannot see myself being trolled but everyone else can.

Double sigh!

Wow! Speaking of TROLLING someone. Remember this city, Huc? Seems to me like you are just as guilty.




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Posted By: Ammianus
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 18:10
This thread is about defy death! 
It is bad taste and mostly unwelcome to usurp it for accusations which have been posted before and repeated too often already.

On the Defy Death subject:
This has been a bug and has been fixed and that is good.

Why should we make another change now to get the previous erroneous result by a new mechanism.

Also for those who argue high level commanders should get additional benefits beyond those which are bestowed on them already by having features added to them with the points available, I'd say:
IMHO the ability to put 10 levels on Defy Death is good enough, it will be used on high level commanders where the benefit of having an up to 10% average saving of time. being able to give to allocate points to defy death already is one of the advantages of having high level commanders. Everyone can choose if this average reduction of 10% ressurection time is useful or not.  I would assume that's going to give an advantage for commanders of level 100 and above.



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Qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non causa.
[Vegetius]


Posted By: AdmiralRage
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2018 at 22:12
Well the problem is now that the bug is fixed, Defy Death becomes pretty useless. A 10% chance of survival is not worth 10 levels of resurrection time (I think that's the general opinion, hopefully I'm making a correct assumption). Defy Death needs to be improved so it is a viable option.

And for those who have already leveled up Defy Death, should they have to pay for the prestige to undo it?


Posted By: Eros
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 00:13
Imagine that, battlefield conditions have changed, that would never happen in actual combat would it...




Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 00:13
Originally posted by AdmiralRage AdmiralRage wrote:

And for those who have already leveled up Defy Death, should they have to pay for the prestige to undo it?

Yes.

Game companies don't issue refunds for player actions based on malfunctioning code. In fact, game companies don't issue refunds for actual money spent on purchases like cards, items, and upgrades that later get nerfed because they are unbalanced in actual gameplay. In this specific case, leveling up Defy Death didn't even require the expenditure of money, just some time spent on leveling up the commanders.

If the devs felt really bad about it (which they shouldn't), they could cut the price of commander reassignment from 15 down to 3 prestige for a week, and let everyone rearrange their commanders at -80% off the regular price. I can't say I'd recommend that. If it were me, I would raise Defy Death to 5% per level and call it a day.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Alcie
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 03:03
I really like Ten Kulch's idea of 5 percent per level. I have no opinion on war-effects, but having commanders almost always die would restrict some variety of tactics and also reduce the amusingly large numbers of attacks during tournaments. 50 percent has a big enough affect to easily notice while avoiding the near-immortal problem.

Or, for those like Wartow who want more math, how about this percentage chance of survival:


10/Pi*skill_level*ArcTan[1/(Pi*(1-commander_level/MAX_COMMANDER_LEVEL)^4)]




p.s. I want an equipped pony-of-immortality




Posted By: Blankit
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 08:15
Originally posted by Alcie Alcie wrote:


10/Pi*skill_level*ArcTan[1/(Pi*(1-commander_level/MAX_COMMANDER_LEVEL)^4)]


Did you plot that? And is there really a max comm level?


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Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 08:35
Max commander level is 205

Assuming level 10 defy death, this is what the graph looks like.



Posted By: Blankit
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 10:10
Ofc it comes from upgradable attributes. Its 206, but yes thanks.

Having a smooth curve like this helps make the decision of level subjective. Which is nice.


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---E ---E Now selling pitchforks at The Pitchfork -Emporium. ---E ---E


Posted By: OssianII
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 12:18
Originally posted by Morose Morose wrote:

Originally posted by OssianII OssianII wrote:

This thread is turning into another bash Hucbold fest from the alliances who deliberately go out of their way to personally harass, humiliate and deride other players at every opportunity. There is no need for us tolerate this anymore. We should keep a record and report it. Where there is long delay in GM's  taking action on these reports then we should band together and force their hand! Some of these practises must stop before this game gets a reputation. 

Ossian, this thread was a discussion of the fixed exploit regarding Defy Death.  Hucbold then derided SIN, blaming them for influencing the GM to fix a known exploit in the game that he admitted to using as part of their strategy.  The simple fact of the matter is that Defy Death was not working properly.  The period of time it was not working properly does not matter, and using the fact that it was not working as intended is an exploit plain as day.  

I do not see how that wouldn't be construed as his fault, and while he may have a point in the length of time in which this went unfixed, he is absolutely wrong in his assertion that it had some malicious intent to punish him behind it.  

TLDR - Defy Death was broken, now it's fixed, some people are mad that they can no longer exploit the fact that it's broken but it was never labeled to do anything more than it does now so the burden of the consequences are on them.
Then your post is off-topic and unnecessary. Open another thread.


Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 15:21
Originally posted by Blankit Blankit wrote:

Ofc it comes from upgradable attributes. Its 206, but yes thanks.

Having a smooth curve like this helps make the decision of level subjective. Which is nice.

206? What did I miss?

9 self bonuses= 90
11 division bonuses=110
Troop specific defence boost=5

=205


Posted By: Ruarc
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 16:07
Updates to the game are always good.
 
Can we expect to see more fixes, possibly including an improved text editor?
 


Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:

Originally posted by Blankit Blankit wrote:

Ofc it comes from upgradable attributes. Its 206, but yes thanks.

Having a smooth curve like this helps make the decision of level subjective. Which is nice.

206? What did I miss?

9 self bonuses= 90
11 division bonuses=110
Troop specific defence boost=5

=205
 
Accelerated Healing has 11 levels.


Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 16:55
Accelerated healing has 11 levels but the commander starts at level 0 with level 1 accelerated healing meaning it doesn't change it from 205.


Posted By: Blankit
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 22:52
Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:

Accelerated healing has 11 levels but the commander starts at level 0 with level 1 accelerated healing meaning it doesn't change it from 205.


Again, I did not know that. Thanks. Are you planning on returning? Willd is back.


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Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 23:20
I'm back (temporarily) rn as I am sorting out some issues relating to my gold... they should be dealt with soon enough and then I'll be off again. I don't intend to be in GC at all as that way lies a full return which I don't particularly want.


Willd was back before I left.


Posted By: Count Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2018 at 23:34
Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:

Originally posted by Blankit Blankit wrote:

Ofc it comes from upgradable attributes. Its 206, but yes thanks.

Having a smooth curve like this helps make the decision of level subjective. Which is nice.

206? What did I miss?

9 self bonuses= 90
11 division bonuses=110
Troop specific defence boost=5

=205

He added up all the levels shown on the commander screen.  Accelerated healing shows as 11 levels because you start with one which is not reflected in your commanders level count.  So there are 206 levels but commanders can only show 205.


Posted By: Lord Stanley
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 19:33
I have 2 alternative suggestions. I offer them thinking about how a real life battle would play out.
In my mind, avoiding death in a battle should be an inherent skill that a commander has. The more experienced he is, they more likely that he could find a way to survive any battle. So the first step is to increase the likelihood of survival by a sliding scale method to cap out at 50% for a fully leveled commander.
With that baseline in mind, the 2 options I would suggest are either..
1) Change defy death's attributes to decrease revival time by some percentage up to say perhaps a 10-20% time saving.
2) have defy death add an additional 10 - 20% to the baseline battle survival.

To me, either of these changes would reward people for creating and keeping high level commanders, make the benefits of using the attribute actually worth spending the xp on on, while not making the benefit so disproportional as to harm the game.

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//elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/b/309517/av.jpg


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 20:15
Isn't there already a benefit to high level commanders, due to their skills?

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 01:41
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Isn't there already a benefit to high level commanders, due to their skills?

Well, I think the point that people are trying to make is that this benefit is linear. It's a fantasy game, we all want a Dragon Reborn or would settle on a Rambo. What we get instead is a progressively overbuilt Swiss army knife.

It is not very exciting.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 03:57
Because the military game is about troops and the map, no?

From playing Game of War, where everything is about commanders (and selling you gear for commanders), I like the more evenly paced power curve of Illyriad.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 04:22
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Because the military game is about troops and the map, no?


While true, I think adding a bit of pizzazz to commander mechanics would be great. On the account of the "game about troops and the map", spicing up combat mechanics is badly needed, such as rebalancing defensive and offensive troops, introducing something to rebalance terrain bonuses, and coming up with ways to make combat mechanics less linear. The whole "surround yourself with plains" being the only option for decent defense ends up boxing entire alliances into one strategy.

But that's a whole different conversation.


Posted By: Eros
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 04:42
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:

The whole "surround yourself with plains" being the only option for decent defense ends up boxing entire alliances into one strategy.

But that's a whole different conversation.

Would it be a real forum if we didn't tangent off at every opportunity?

The more I think about it the more absurd dragging a siege engine, or 30, up a mountain, then actually making them work becomes. 

Getting it all done in 12 hours its even more outrageous Wacko


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 05:04
Keep in mind that mountain has a million troops, minimum. Many hands make short work.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Sene
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 10:46
One of those patches I wish weren't here... Though I assume it was exploited severely. Was an odd one too, seeming to add up all levels of defy deaths of all army commanders together. But it had sense then, and it hardly does now.

I would vote up Ten's proposal for increasing DD value per level. Or introducing some crafted wonder-battle-mare that would carry its' owner out of the battle, enfluencing his defy death rolls severely.


Posted By: white willow
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 14:37
since most had not been complaining about the error since 2011, its now interesting to see them complain about the fix to normal.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 17:47
Originally posted by white willow white willow wrote:

since most had not been complaining about the error since 2011, its now interesting to see them complain about the fix to normal.

The 5x equipment update made it far more powerful. As Sene speculates, a few players started really pushing the exploit hard. It's not surprising to see them complain about the fix. Several players were getting the equivalent of 1000 free t2 attack troops, per city, per day by exploiting the bug. That's more bonus troops than those cities could actually produce in a day.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Sene
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 04:41
OK lemme clarify this: I had been exploiting the bug, though I was not too sure whether that was a bug or a feature. But I was utilizing it in hunting, found it far too helpful and those NPCs never seemed to complain or bother about the issue at all, you know.

Now I guess it would be groovy to separate hunting and PvP issues apart, maybe by introducing anti-DD skill or anti-DD equipment. Thus NPCs would go on enjoying the power of humanism and big armies will cease being thrashed by small armies.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 04:58
Originally posted by Sene Sene wrote:

OK lemme clarify this: I had been exploiting the bug, though I was not too sure whether that was a bug or a feature. But I was utilizing it in hunting

Now I guess it would be groovy to separate hunting and PvP issues apart, maybe by introducing anti-DD skill or anti-DD equipment. Thus NPCs would go on enjoying the power of humanism and big armies will cease being thrashed by small armies.

You needn't rely on Defy Death for hunting at all, and if you find your armies being defeated too often, then that's a non-optimal army set-up. A correctly constructed army with 200-300 units can kill a legion no problem, with plenty of units surviving. Myriads and higher, you may need to bulk up a bit more. The solution to this problem that requires zero code changes is described in http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com/2016/11/basic-hunting-guide.html" rel="nofollow - this basic hunting guide . Enjoy!


Posted By: Sene
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 10:05
Lol thx for the update, Tink, appreciate it. "A correctly constructed army with 200-300 units" is far too many unless you are attacking a very large stack. A correctly constructed hunitng army consists of no more than 61 T2 units or around 100 T1 (varies for different troop type). Number of NPCs that can be taken down with 61 elite set hugely depends on the troop type, terrain and NPC type. Rats can be killed in amounts up to 15k and more with mere 61 t2 horses on plains. 61 elite stalwart set quite easily defeat 6-7k crawlers in large woods.

But that's not what we are talking about. Mistakes happen, stack size chnages happen. In theory it's possible to send troops just enough to have a victory with one troop survivor or with no survivors at all. But if you make 10-20 hunitng runs a day like I do, mistakes do happen from time to time. And that's where DD came far too handy, saving resurrect time and precious crafted.


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 15:35
Alright, sorry for lumping you with new players who actually kill their hunting armies all the time because they don't know how to construct them in a way that doesn't kill a lot of troops. I am curious about your method (which, I assume, involves equipping every unit in your elite division to the hilt) and would like to see a report of a 61 elite army killing 10-15k rats.

I hunt quite a bit, maybe not 10-20 runs a day but 10-5 easily, but I don't optimize a hunting army to be this lean. Since troops are cheaper than crafted gear, I'm more okay with a few more units dying and using the gear primarily on commanders. All in all, it's totally possible to hunt a lot and only very occasionally need to resurrect.


Posted By: Sene
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 16:18
No worries, we haven't met before as far as I remember so you don't have to know me. And no, I never equip troops, it's just a total waste. I was about to bed actually, but I'll try to find a rep of 61-killing- myriad rep... I should have a couple of them. Will direct them to Tink XX then. Otherwise please mail Sene from the acc you want the reps to be sent to.



Posted By: Sene
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 16:33
Upd: couldn't find Tink XX in Illy, so to not spam with off-top here, plz IGM me if interested.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2018 at 18:19
Her in-game handle is Tinkinator now. She used to be Tink XX, abandoned that account, and built Tinkinator as a replacement.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Dabrelis
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 10:27
When Defy Death is fixed, can you please check into hunting animals equipment bonuses? 

There are many players believing those do not work properly, but there is no official statement on the matters (I am sorry if there was).

Hunting is one of the first things where Illyriad becomes fun (after upgrading resources) and this unclarity of whether bonuses work or not is not good for game.



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