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NPC Difficulty Guide

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Manannan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manannan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: NPC Difficulty Guide
    Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 22:23
A lot of people are asking in Global Chat how difficult certain NPCs are to defeat. As a rough guide here are some figures I will call, for want of a better name, the 'Manannan Difficulty Quotient' (MDQ)... Hey I invented it therefore I get to name it after myself! Tongue (Please note the name may change at a whim in the future!) LOL 

As it is a quotient it is an average figure for all troop types in that faction/species so lower tier troops (e.g. Wild Dogs Pups) will be easier than the MDQ given and higher tier troops (e.g. Wolves Wolfpack Leaders) will be harder than the MDQ stated. The figures are put together from the hours of research I used for the (unpublishable) NPC Guide and Bestiary.

In theory, the lower the MDQ the easier it should be to defeat that particular NPC if you have sufficient troop numbers. Obviously if you attack a 'Legion of ???' with only a dozen troops you will be annihilated! Plan your troop numbers accordingly. Don't say I didn't warn you!

It should also be noted that the rewards for attacking Faction NPCs are normally greater than those of Nature NPCs (explained more in the unpublishable NPC Guide and Bestiary - lets not go there) so given a personal choice of attacking 100 Nature NPC Scaled Chargers troops (3.225 MDQ) or 100 Faction NPC Baynes Irregulars troops (2.6775 MDQ), I would hit the faction for the easier (theoretical) attack and bigger (theoretical) payday of gold and commander experience. This is of course totally dependent on the troops faced.

REMEMBER theses figures are a guide only and in no way guarantee success in any attack. That is down to the troop numbers and tactics you decide to use! 

Faction MDQ
  • Crimson Dawn              2.2875
  • Treggar's Crows           2.775
  • Brotherhood of Kerala     2.775
  • Marauding Skullsplitters  2.775
  • Baynes Irregulars         2.6775
Nature MDQ
  • Alligators          2.350
  • Anacondas           2.425
  • Arctic Wolves       2.275
  • Baboons             1.875
  • Black Bears         2.000
  • Black Panthers      3.100
  • Brown Bears         2.150
  • Cobras              2.450
  • Coral Snakes        2.225
  • Cyclopes            4.000
  • Elephants          12.750
  • Fire Salamanders    3.000
  • Gharials            2.200
  • Giant Beetles       1.425
  • Giant Rats          1.200
  • Giant Scorpions     3.025
  • Giant Scuttlers     3.250
  • Giant Snakes        3.100
  • Giant Spiders       2.700
  • Golden Monkeys      1.300
  • Ice Salamanders     2.575
  • Jaguars             2.200
  • Leopards            2.575
  • Lions               2.825
  • Mammoths           18.100
  • Massive Scarabs     2.050
  • Poisonous Crawlers  2.875
  • Polar Bears         2.550
  • Pumas               2.425
  • Rhinoceros          7.275
  • Roaming Trolls      3.300
  • Salamanders         2.825
  • Saurians           19.250
  • Scaled Chargers     3.225
  • Scritchers          2.525
  • Simien Wolves       2.075
  • Snow Leopards       2.250
  • Tigers              3.300
  • White Tigers        3.575
  • Wild Dogs           0.700
  • Wolves              1.540

I have not listed the Elemental NPCs as they have been removed from the game and no longer lay waiting in ambush for you in dead cities. Obviously they still exist in the game in players armies who were fortunate enough to bind them in the third tournament, but as I'm not about to encourage new players to attack the experience/veteran players who have them for their own safety, therefore they are omitted.

This is still very much a work in progress (and has been for several months) so I will be back in to edit it in the future with more accurate numbers and, for the ever faithful horde of Illyriad number crunchers, an explanation of the maths used for the figures. The reason I am publishing it half complete is people who have used it already have said they find the 'ball park' figures as they are useful as a guide to decide.

Edited by GM Luna - 28 Feb 2012 at 18:51
Doesn't look good... doesn't look bad either!

"Manananananananananan, so long Sir, and thanks for all the fish." ~ St.Jude
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Rill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 23:46
Thank you Mana! this represents a lot of work and is an awesome resource!

I am adding this information copied from Gryzelda's profile so people have it in one handy place.  As for NPC numbers, my motto is: When in doubt, scout!


Sizes of NPC Occupations
LabelMinimumMaximum
Few13
Handful48
Several921
Pack2281
Many82128
Gathering129227
Horde228461
Throng462814
Host8152,499
Legion2,5007,207

http://illyriad.honoredsoft.com/wiki/Critters_Chart



Edited by Rill - 10 Sep 2011 at 23:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manannan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2011 at 02:42
Your numbers vary very slightly from those I gathered over the months, but not by much:

Few

1-3

Handful

4-10

Several

9-23

Pack

22-83

Many

77-128

Gathering

135-226

Horde

205-481

Throng *

561-823

Host *

1538-2410

Legion *

4202-6793


* When obtaining these figures there were anomalous scouting numbers around the 200 mark which have been excluded.

Like Rill says 'When in doubt, scout!' Especially when it comes to the faction armies


Doesn't look good... doesn't look bad either!

"Manananananananananan, so long Sir, and thanks for all the fish." ~ St.Jude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albatross Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2011 at 11:04
Because these figures are meant to be 'hand-wavy remarks based on sightings' rather than counts, I expect there's some randomization before the Label is assigned.

What follows [long post!] is my own reading of how much effort is worthwhile, and is by no means belittling the effort that Manannan and others have put into this.

I've taken a brief look at the problem of assessing one's own chances of defeating creatures (and therefore losses), but found the variables to be too far-scattered to make accuracy practical. Each missing variable (or guess), e.g. terrain, unit types, and so on, introduce significant error to an assessment.

In a way, this is good, because if we're accepting the role-playing nature of the game, then we shouldn't be certain of outcomes, and a hand-wavy observation should be enough to help a player gauge whether their capability is in the same order of magnitude as that of the NPC. Scouting gets more precise figures, which would answer the question of "what are my losses likely to be?"

Players should be attacking only those NPC squares where the outcome is clearly in the player's favour, to minimize losses - we don't want to be burning through troops just to give commanders experience. Given this requirement, accuracy of assessment becomes less important (you're looking for at least 5:1 advantage before attacking).

If we're looking for a discussion point, my question would be this: Could we get by with in-game information only?

By providing 'Labels' and scouting reports, the Illy developers have given us a standard way of assessing capability. Is that enough, or is the need for a more precise estimator just an indication that people want to reduce their safety margins using variables that are not usually available to a player?

Edit: I made a related game suggestion, which has been moved to:  http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=2434&PID=27379&title=moved-strategist-scout#27379

I see this proposed enhancement (if adopted) firstly as a justification that extra information could validly be gained through experience; we merely make the game a bit more fun by giving the option of automation using a new unit. It reinforces the idea that all players are created equal, and advanced analysis is not just for the mathematically-minded real-world players.


Edited by Albatross - 22 Sep 2011 at 12:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Createure Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2011 at 11:17
Nice guide Manannan.

@Albatross: this is a guide... go make a thread in suggestions if you want new units.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albatross Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2011 at 11:48
@createure: absolutely, yes. I had forgotten where I was posting :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smoking GNU Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 12:45
Well in that case i would LOVE to see someone kill a Legion of Saurians at some point int he future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Althathwe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 14:05
Monsters outside "newbie ring" more difficult than inside? Maybe more dangerous types or more biggest spots?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yso Sris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2011 at 22:33
I want to point out for example saurians, some with 200-400+ attack, still only give 1-2 experience points each. This is very cheesy IMO, they aren't worth the losses.
-Molg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manannan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2011 at 23:15
Originally posted by Yso Sris Yso Sris wrote:

I want to point out for example saurians, some with 200-400+ attack, still only give 1-2 experience points each. This is very cheesy IMO, they aren't worth the losses.

Firstly you need to get a better understanding of how attacking NPCs works. I'm sure someone will be willing to explain it to you. Geek

Secondly I wonder if the difficulty and rewards of the Saurian NPC type has anything to do with why it has an MPD as high as it does? Nah... that would be too simple an explanation! LOL

To the pub!!! Beer 
Doesn't look good... doesn't look bad either!

"Manananananananananan, so long Sir, and thanks for all the fish." ~ St.Jude
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