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How Much Should It Cost To Start An Alliance?

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Poll Question: How much should it cost to start an alliance?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
9 [30.00%]
1 [3.33%]
1 [3.33%]
2 [6.67%]
4 [13.33%]
1 [3.33%]
1 [3.33%]
11 [36.67%]
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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 21:56
If a player is unable to understand how to make a gold they clearly don't know much about the game given that methods of gold creation such as trade and taxes are discussed in the tutorial. If they have prestige then they must have gone through the prestige buying page which shows how prestige can be converted to gold.

The only common methods of getting gold not explicitly mentioned are metagame ones such as terraforming.

Additionally, doesn't it make sense for alliance to cost gold rather than minerals or anything else much in the same way that in real life we'll pay money to form a corporation rather than pay with quartz?

Also, would a player who is unable to make gold really be a suitable candidate for leading a whole alliance?

Currently, alliance formation is a fairly meaningless goal- anyone can make one with ease so there's no challenge there. A slightly higher threshold for having an alliance would make it a goal. 

It could, potentially, lead to a difference there if the price was too high. But then if it was that high, surely empty alliances would become assets in their own right with the potential for being bought and sold for below the cost of forming an alliance?

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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 22:25
I see nothing wrong with new players running an alliance. We don't need any additional barriers to early participation in this game.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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AdmiralRage View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralRage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 05:12
I agree with TK. Let the natural supply/demand work. There's a demand for new alliances in the game. Right now people are complaining that the supply of new alliances is too high. I'm not actually sure why they are complaining. Maybe because they have to actually try harder to recruit people? Other than that it really shouldn't affect them in any way.

Back to the point. If the supply is too high, enough new alliances will go out of business until it reaches equilibrium with the natural demand. No barriers or government intervention needed.

There could be a way to delete old inactive alliances... but again, doesn't affect anyone's gameplay at all.


Edited by AdmiralRage - 09 Apr 2018 at 05:15
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Tensmoor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 08:55
By allowing new players to create these 'micro' alliances we are giving them an opportunity to learn the problems and hard work that come with the job. This not only gives them a better undurstanding of the game but I think it can also have a a real life bonus in that they are more likely to consider repercusions of their actions. I tend towards support for TenK.
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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 11:07
TenK,
The problem with new players running alliances is that this reduces player retention. If the game had a large amount of new players coming in then that wouldn't be a problem but it doesn't.

Additionally, surely one of the biggest early barriers is knowledge, a barrier that would persist with the new players much longer if they make their own alliance. You yourself have recognised that there is a large knowledge gap between a new player and an older player and attempted to fix this situation by offering classes on the military play style in Thunderdome.

Admiral, 
In economics, there is something called a demerit good. Demerit goods are defined as 'a good or service whose consumption is considered unhealthy, degrading, or otherwise socially undesirable due to the perceived negative effects on the consumers themselves'. 

I would argue that alliances act as a demerit good beyond a certain point as though the new player may want to make an alliance indicating that there is perceived private benefit from doing that, this does not benefit the game as a whole as new player alliances are less likely to survive and the players in them are also less likely to stick around. 
In cases of a demerit good, government intervention is often needed. 

You do not understand why an increase is being proposed? Have you not read the 2 pages of comments containing why people are voting for higher prices? Not a single one has said 'recruiting is too hard, we should make it easier'. Most have talked about the fragmentation of the player base and new player retention, amongst other things.

For an efficient equilibrium to occur as you indicate would happen, you assume that players have perfect, or at the very least adequate, information about the creation of alliances, the time costs involved and the likelihood of failure. However, by definition, new players do not have this information because they are new. Therefore, their choices are not optimal ones. Would it really hurt to get them to wait until they know the game a bit more before they make a choice such as this? 

Here's how too many new player alliances effects existing players: If there are too many, this reduces player retention. This then means that there are fewer players playing the game. This reduces the dev's revenue meaning they are less likely to work on illy. Illyriad is also a social game. Fewer players reduces the number of people to play this social game with. This reduces the social aspect and arguably makes the game worse.


Tens,
Does it give them a better understanding of the game compared to being in an established alliance with vets who can teach them or at the very least, point them to resources that can teach them? If the point is to learn the problems and hard work that comes with the job, then shouldn't that happen after they have the capability to deal with said problems? 

Surely a longer wait during which they can learn the game means that they can make a better decision when they come to make it? Currently, the median is 10 mil which is hardly an insurmountable goal for a new player but is enough to get them to experience the game so they can make an informed decision.
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OssianII View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OssianII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 11:09
Originally posted by rajput rajput wrote:

Me thinks Ermm We need to plug these polls on GC... 
Definitely quote of the week  Clap.

I think that the minimum amount of  500000 gold is sufficient. The game must be about having fun, before anything else.  Illy is a vast sandbox game which allows people many paths to follow to and enjoy  the game in which they would prefer to play it. However the establishment and survival of an alliance can be a very difficult task if you fail to take into account the many issues that can arise. Potential recruits should always have an idea of what they are letting themselves in for when they join a new alliance.  Therefore I recommend that we re-establish the Alliance Register which makes leaders provide the details of their alliance.  This will help leaders to establish and improve their alliances  whilst giving the community a certain amount of  transperancy


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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 12:01
Could you explain to me please why a higher price would necessarily reduce the amount of fun? 

Surely having a goal you need to work towards can be a source of fun? Currently, you get an immediate payout of fun making an alliance but with no build up. If you work for something and feel like you've earned it, wouldn't that be fun in and of itself? 

Its like levelling in other games where you work for a bit and get a reward. Currently, you don't work at all which means there is limited satisfaction to be had in making an alliance. Equally, you don't want to set the goal too high as it becomes too much of a grind. In my opinion, 10 mil provides an adequate amount of difficulty to make creating an alliance a mid term goal whilst at the same time not being so far off as to not be attainable.

Also, if someone doesn't find working towards a goal fun... is leading an alliance really for them? Is Illyriad as a whole for them? This is a long term game, so why should making an alliance be such a casual and short term goal? 

I agree, a proper register of alliances would be a good idea but it needs to be more interactive than that. There needs to be a way of giving players within the alliance, or those who have recently left, a voice to say whether the alliance is actually good. Otherwise, you just have the alliance profile.




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Dabrelis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dabrelis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 13:20
Do we actually have a hard proof, that guys who join smaller alliances are more likely to leave the game?
Next to my castle I have a newb who joined PLAN and has not logged in for like month. PLAN is not small.

There could be a point that some guys want to join new alliances and play a bigger role there, than go to established one and become a tiny voice there.
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 13:27
Eowan, your entire thesis is that these small alliances result in a retention problem. Where is the evidence of that? If such a phenomenon exists (which I personally doubt), then surely the devs can see that pattern. They collect considerable metrics on the game.

My gut feel--which is all you are really presenting yourself--is that limiting alliance formation would discourage just as many new players as it retains. If I joined a game with my little Steam team, and found that we couldn't even play together immediately, I would be much more inclined to quit and go find another game where we can build a team on Day 1.

You are also assuming that all players who join Illyriad are primarily limited by resources and knowledge, which in turn assumes that their main goal is to build "good" cities by your standards. I would argue that isn't the goal of many players here.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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Tensmoor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 14:41
Once again I find myself agreeing with TenK. Resource limitations is not really a factor - how many do you see in GC asking for res when they are in an alliance? For me the lack of knowledge was easily overcome by reading the wealth of guides, chatting and listening in GC and best of all (for me anyway) experimenting. Whilst there are no guides (that I know of) for leading an alliance talking and listening to others is very helpful so it is not impossible for a newbie.
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