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The Great War

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Halcyon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halcyon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 19:23
Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


Players were being sieged from the game right from the get go, it was not some last ditch effort to 'work for peace' against players who refused to listen to peaceful talks, it was a systematic purge of all enemies with a total disregard for how wars were fought in the past and a complete lack of foresight towards the future. It was carnage for the sake of entertainment, pure and simple. Don't try to rewrite history.

Nonsense. It was war and we did what we had to do in order to win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 20:00
I'm sure you found it entertaining, Epidemic, particularly as you raked in all the gold from both sides.  Speaking as one of the people involved, I found defending to be a lot more fun than attacking.  

The war did have its fun moments (and I salute T-O, DB, TCol, BSH, DLords and H? for providing the most fun and challenging aspect that I personally participated in, the sieges of Ely and Over), but speaking for myself, sieging is pretty dull, as is writing mails politely requesting that people surrender before you destroy their city.

I agree with Hora that I hope people will have learned things from the past war.   I hope that the lessons taken from this war are 1) if you begin a war, you must be prepared to carry it through, even if the endgame is something you find distasteful; if you can't handle the destruction that is involved in war, then you shouldn't start one and 2) refusing to surrender and "daring" your enemy to destroy you in order to make the other person the bad guy is NOT an effective tactic.

I personally hope never again to be involved in a war like the last one.  In real life, people say "never again" about war, and then even worse wars sometimes follow.  I hope Illy can be different, that at the very least the nature of wars in Illy change and there will be less fighting to the death and demands for reparations and more fun on both sides of a war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 21:00
Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

GA set the new standard for war and now need to deal with it. you reap what you sow.
I really hope this war will NOT be the new standard!

You can close the barn door, but I think that horse is long gone. The limits on account destruction were a community standard. As the new über-powerful military bloc, the Grand Alliance sets the tone for warfare in the community. Scorched earth is common in other MMORTS, so it was probably inevitable that it would eventually appear in Illyriad.

Edit: deleted weird formatting html.

Edited by Brandmeister - 24 Jan 2015 at 21:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 21:08
Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:

Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

Thus, maybe the big alliances now prepared some diplomatic ways to handle an enemy not going to surrender. And maybe everyone learned the cost of such a policy and thinks twice about
Players were being sieged from the game right from the get go, it was not some last ditch effort to 'work for peace' against players who refused to listen to peaceful talks, it was a systematic purge of all enemies with a total disregard for how wars were fought in the past and a complete lack of foresight towards the future. It was carnage for the sake of entertainment, pure and simple. Don't try to rewrite history.

So far, most sieges were an "or else" case. Like in "stop attacking/thiefing/insulting or else" or, in this case, "surrender and get the easy way out, or else we'll fight on".

I don't try to rewrite anything, as I used many useless forumpost in trying to convince both sides to stop fighting. And when I get lots of denials, especially from the loosing side, my pity is running low. 
Some players chose the "easy" way out, and were definitly better off than those who kept on... and I guess that's exactly the objective of surrender: trying to talk the attackers into stopping while you still have something left Wink


Edited by Hora - 24 Jan 2015 at 21:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epidemic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 21:20
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I'm sure you found it entertaining, Epidemic, particularly as you raked in all the gold from both sides. 

I hope that the lessons taken from this war are 1) if you begin a war, you must be prepared to carry it through, even if the endgame is something you find distasteful; if you can't handle the destruction that is involved in war, then you shouldn't start one and 2) refusing to surrender and "daring" your enemy to destroy you in order to make the other person the bad guy is NOT an effective tactic.


Actually the war was extremely unprofitable, prices dropped to record lows, and I really didn't bother offering any sells for most of the war. Most large sells were done when individual players contacted me. Just ask any reputable trader and they'll agree with me.

1)Your 'grand' alliance prepared for the war at least 6 months in advance and started the war once you were ready.

2)Your 'grand' alliance destroyed entire accounts right from the start of the war, you were the bad guys from the get go, you brought 'all-out war' to Illy...under the banner of being peaceful players wanting to protect Illy from the evil H?, who never actually stooped to your level of warfare.

Do you remember the name of the Dlord player you made sure was sieged from the game after he had the nerve to send thieves to your town, or an ncrow town, because he got tired of being thieved nonstop for months? You may be able to trick the newbs, but you don't fool the vets.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 21:24
Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:

Originally posted by Hora Hora wrote:

Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

GA set the new standard for war and now need to deal with it. you reap what you sow.
I really hope this war will NOT be the new standard!

You can close the barn door, but I think that horse is long gone. The limits on account destruction were a community standard. As the new über-powerful military bloc, the Grand Alliance sets the tone for warfare in the community. Scorched earth is common in other MMORTS, so it was probably inevitable that it would eventually appear in Illyriad.
 

Nope, noone has to. "Community standard" is flexible, as all it needs is to plan a good propaganda to bend at least the forum talks into any direction. 
And there never had been a standard for players, who are waiting far too long until agreeing to those stupid surrender terms, more because of pride than for the damn towns or money. I guess the fact that there actually were terms offered quite from the middle of the war, still lets me see lot's of difference to other MMORTS!

I for myself (and I guess I can talk for VIC in this case, too) will always offer some reasonable way out of any war we might have the upper hand in the future. And if the loosing side refuses to sign terms, maybe take some towns as reparation by force and then stop... even more embarrasing to the looser, as he's not worth the effort anymore.

And the "community standard" has always had a backdoor for guys not backing down and keeping on attacking. Might I bring back to mind the "Crusade" against TMM...?


Edited by Hora - 24 Jan 2015 at 21:27
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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 21:37
I'm not sure I agree that a standard can be very flexible, and still remain a real standard. I don't recall hearing about TMM, maybe it was before my time? Please elaborate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 21:46
Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:

Actually the war was extremely unprofitable, prices dropped to record lows, and I really didn't bother offering any sells for most of the war. Most large sells were done when individual players contacted me. Just ask any reputable trader and they'll agree with me.

I also observed this phenomenon. Item prices fell throughout the war, even when the tournament started. Many sellers were recognizable alts and probable farm accounts. I believe the reason for this seeming price drop is that gold consumption skyrocketed during the war, as both sides built large armies. Their item stockpiles were more than sufficient (an effect of permasats), so they started selling large quantities of items in order to have more gold for bigger armies.

In short, I do not believe the value of items truly fell, so much as the value of gold steeply climbed. Gold is, after all, both a consumable resource and a medium of exchange. This appeared to make item prices crater, when in fact it was just an adjustment in the balance between the consumable commodities of items and gold.

Edited by Brandmeister - 24 Jan 2015 at 21:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mona Lisa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 22:04
Originally posted by Epidemic Epidemic wrote:


 . . . Your 'grand' alliance destroyed entire accounts right from the start of the war, you were the bad guys from the get go, you brought 'all-out war' to Illy...under the banner of being peaceful players wanting to protect Illy from the evil H?, who never actually stooped to your level of warfare. . .


Epi , I am certain you have repeated your stories so often you may actually believe them yourself . . .

The rubbish of one side being more "brutal" than another is amazingly entertaining drivel . . . and also shockingly found on those with axes to grind one way or another  . . .  . all well and good . .  everyone is entitled to opinions, whether based on reality or not . . . 

Those who were in the Coalition like to speak of how "Brutal" the GA was as it appears to better rationalize their obstinate choices for prolonging the war well after it was decided,  I am sure there are many in Consone who viewed that war as "Brutal" or the surrender terms "harsh" as well . . . everything is indeed relative.

It is fortunate that those opposed to Coalition forces in past wars chose the more rational path and accepted terms without having those conflicts go the distance the Great war did.  Hard for the GA to control that when faced with inevitable defeat, many in the Coalition decided not to accept terms and fight to oblivion. . . it was indeed their choice. . . Martyrdom seemed the preferred path when the prideful could not accept defeat. 

For your or the Coalition's logic to have any merit, it would mean that had Consone chosen not to accept terms, the Coalition would have called it quits and not pursued the Consone war to the end . . . somehow, I have a had time believing that the Coalition would have stopped at any point until terms were reached,  and like those who call the GA "brutal", I am equally entitled to my opinion.

I have never been one to shade my views, frankly if all of those in the Coaltion felt that I was any more "brutal" than any of their other foes, I have utterly no problem in dealing with it.   I will not lose any sleep if Gragnog still has an axe to grind,  my shoulders are broad enough to bear that cross  . . . .  

War is War, I do not for one milisecond believe that H? practiced "War-lite" at any time in their history.  

It is indeed quite impossible to siege someone out of the game, if the will is there,  there is always the option to rebuild.  Spare me the violins for those who chose to fight until their cities were laid waste, it was indeed their choice . . . they all had options.

Despite all the spin and the post war PR,  I do not buy for one minute that the Coalition was any more of a kinder and gentler foe than any other out there. They were able to achieve their victories against foes that simply did not share their view of martyrdom . . .  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 22:14
I was thieved by a DLords player, and I did siege his city.  His action in thieving me and others in nCrow definitely moved him up on my target list.  However, I did not siege all his cities, and helped arrange for him to make peace and Exodus his cities out of the "hot" zone.  In fact, I even successfully persuaded my alliance mate to recall a siege launched on one of his cities after he broke a term of his peace agreement.  (He did not intend any harm by what he did, and I tried to make sure no harm came to him because he had been acting in good faith.)

His name was Thorgrim.  I remember his name, even though you do not.  He later went inactive, which I was sad to see.

I received many mails from players insisting that they were going to fight to the death.  Some were rather insulting.  Mona received much worse.  In spite of this, we persistently offered to make peace and urged our opponents to reconsider their path.
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