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Angrim View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Tyrande Whisperwinds Tyrande Whisperwinds wrote:

Now, if PIG isn't some sort of "Illy UN", a sort of "international authority", so to speak, then what PIG is? Cause it seems i completely lost the meaning then...
the convention that PIG was to create (and may still be creating) was not intended to be enforced at all. the experiment was to see whether or not the population of the server could agree on which actions were "fair" in a war, and which were beyond the pale. i would compare it to the code of chivalry. the hope was that having a written standard of conduct would curb the worst excesses of illy war...hence the interest of the warmongers you mention, whose objective is to make pvp more common/less final.


Edited by Angrim - 31 Oct 2014 at 16:26
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Originally posted by Angrim Angrim wrote:

...hence the interest of the warmongers you mention, whose objective is to make pvp more common/less final.


Brilliantly said.

It is frustrating at how many people miss the above point. PvP ends when everyone is dead. I am pretty damn confident that nearly all the PvPers (or if you prefer the pejorative Warmongers) know this all too well.


Edited by StJude - 31 Oct 2014 at 17:30
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Deranzin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I am not sure what your point is, Deranzin.  I was asked to join PIG and did so in good faith.  As I said above, it is possible that the effort, however lofty its goals, was premature.  Or its possible that some of the folks involved, myself included, were not the right ones to pursue the process.


Well, since you put it that way, my point is that maybe we can all learn a little something here and become better ... and the message of that endeavor is "we do not accept every invitation that comes along the way" .... Tongue

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

As for my "behind the scenes" participation in the last war, I did what many people did, which was support my alliance in both offense and defense, once I returned to Illy in late December 2013.


Oh, you did much much more than that ... Wink

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:


Personally, I think people should focus on the folks on both sides who planned and carried out the war; give credit where it is due.


I am doing exactly that and I am giving you some credit for being one of those people ... I do not understand why you don't like it ...

Originally posted by Angrim Angrim wrote:

Originally posted by Deranzin Deranzin wrote:

well considering that you lost nothing in the previous war one could say that you are taking your time with the whole process
a moment ago not having had a loss in the war didn't mean one didn't have an investment in it. now it does? because now the subject was on the other side of the conflict?


I call this "turning the table on someone's erroneous logic" ... I just used her own argument/line of thought, but I applied it on her ... nothing more, nothing less ... Smile

Btw, on a side note, there are vast differences between "being safe behind the lines and not losing something" and "getting constantly attacked and successfully managing to defend again and again to keep what is yours intact", so on that account Rill and Kumomoto are not in the same position ... the end result (no town losses) was the same for both of them, but the facts in between (millions of troops dead to defend Kumomoto's cities on the one hand, not nearly a scratch on Rills walls on the other hand ) are different.

One risks everything and can be said to invest everything and the other is cozy in the knowledge that no harm will even come to their precious towns ...

In any case, Rill's measuring investment by the end result was an erroneous logic to begin with, else me and other destroyed people should have been "major investors", which is obviously quite far from the truth ... LOL


Edited by Deranzin - 09 Nov 2014 at 09:31



Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Rill View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Deranzin Deranzin wrote:


Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:


Personally, I think people should focus on the folks on both sides who planned and carried out the war; give credit where it is due.


I am doing exactly that and I am giving you some credit for being one of those people ... I do not understand why you don't like it ...


I don't like it because it's simply untrue.  While I did not agree with Harmless? policies and said so publicly, I was at best ambivalent about whether war was the way to solve them.  And I was not nearly as confident as some that such a war could be won.  For that reason, I told those who asked me that I was not sure whether war was the right way to go or not.

It seems like you are falling into the trap of trying to find a scapegoat rather than facing the truth:  A lot of people did not like the way Harmless? was acting.  So many people, in fact, that a lot of them got together and decided to go to war against you.

While I was one of the people who did not like the way Harmless? was acting, I had neither the courage to act nor the conviction that war would solve anything, and for that reason cannot take credit for planning what ended up being a successful war.

So please, give credit where it is due.
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Deranzin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I don't like it because it's simply untrue.  While I did not agree with Harmless? policies and said so publicly, I was at best ambivalent about whether war was the way to solve them.  And I was not nearly as confident as some that such a war could be won.  For that reason, I told those who asked me that I was not sure whether war was the right way to go or not.


Well, I remember you jumping up and down in GC day and night with the mayhem, so this paragraph sounds a bit funny to me ...

Whether you believed in war or not is irrelevant to me ... you were in here, day and night, overseeing it (not merely watching it) and that is more than many others did ... again I say that this determination is to your credit...

so...

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:


It seems like you are falling into the trap of trying to find a scapegoat rather than facing the truth:


... I do not see why you think that I am trying to find a scapegoat or whatnot ... I didn't blame you for anything, did I .?. On the contrary I am giving you credit for a war well fought ... I do not see what your problem is with that ...

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

A lot of people did not like the way Harmless? was acting.  So many people, in fact, that a lot of them got together and decided to go to war against you.


Quite true, else indeed they would have banded up together ... and also true is that one of those people was you, else indeed you would have banded up with them in the war effort ... why are you so uncomfortable with that fact, I wonder, and why do you think that such a thing is placing any blame on you .?.

As far as I am concerned I take pride for my minor role in the Consone war ... why can't you do the same with your part in this war and you think that when someone mentions your participation in it, is somehow blaming you or casting a negative light on your account .?. I fail to see the problem.

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:


While I was one of the people who did not like the way Harmless? was acting, I had neither the courage to act nor the conviction that war would solve anything, and for that reason cannot take credit for planning what ended up being a successful war.

So please, give credit where it is due.


As usual, you are a slippery client Rill ... in your last post you wrote : 

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Personally, I think people should focus on the folks on both sides who planned and carried out the war; give credit where it is due.


... and indeed I gave you credit for the "carrying out" part ... and immediately in the next post you ommit it ... "credit where it is due" indeed so I will say it again : I have no idea whether you helped in the planning or not - I can take your word for that - but as far as the carrying out part, noone was more active in GC from either side in terms of the war effort and its minutiae of keeping it smooth and mainting the "political front" of the war ... Smile

You do not like my credit .?. You think it is undue .?. Maybe you are shy of people congratulating your contribution .?. Well, be that as it may, the fact that as far as I am concerned credit went where it is due ... I like to be fair with such things and not belittle other people's victories and achievements ... Smile



Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Rill View Drop Down
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Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.  If you remember me jumping up and down in gc day and night, then you are remembering incorrectly.  I was gone from the game from July through November 2013, when the war was beginning.  A large part of the reason for my absence was my ambivalence about the emerging political situation in Illy.

As for my participation in the war, I think I acquitted myself reasonably well, given that I have a fairly limited number of troops.  I am particularly proud of my participation in the defense of nCrow cities of Ely and Over.  However, to suggest that I played a key role in those actions would be to understate the contributions of other players in my alliance and our allies.

Again, thanks for your plaudits, but they are undeserved.


Edited by Rill - 09 Nov 2014 at 20:01
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Osu View Drop Down
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Most people involved in the war know exactly who was involved in orchestrating it, not just in seeing it through, irrespective of what is said in these forums.
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Angrim View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Osu Osu wrote:

Most people involved in the war know exactly who was involved in orchestrating it, not just in seeing it through, irrespective of what is said in these forums.
i would surprised if that were true.
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Originally posted by Angrim Angrim wrote:

Originally posted by Osu Osu wrote:

Most people involved in the war know exactly who was involved in orchestrating it, not just in seeing it through, irrespective of what is said in these forums.
i would surprised if that were true.

Well, speaking for myself at least, it was very clear to me, both who & why.  I would like to think most people involved knew why they were fighting too.
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Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.  If you remember me jumping up and down in gc day and night, then you are remembering incorrectly.  I was gone from the game from July through November 2013, when the war was beginning.  A large part of the reason for my absence was my ambivalence about the emerging political situation in Illy.

I am obviously reffering to the timeframe when you were active and not before ... and on that timeframe I am definitely not remembering incorrectly since, at some point, me and Rathgore had quite the fun chain skirmishes, so we were both on the lookout for at least 3/4ths of the day and while on that boring job, I did lurk in GC quite a bit ... I know not your timezone (many people keep it secret since it is an important war factor Star), but rare was the time of the day when you were not there and not in some appeasing talk concerning the war or in a "let us derail GC and get them not to notice the fighting" attempt ...

Again I make clear that I say that in a positive way (it was a job well done and I am not keen on idle praise) so ...

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:


Again, thanks for your plaudits, but they are undeserved.


... it is deserved and you are welcome ... Smile



Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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