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DB in the Coalition War

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Rill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2014 at 23:19
As I said Angrim, you and I had different ways of approaching the matter.  Personally I think if TCol had better friends that were more clear with them that the path they were on was a destructive one, it would have served them better.

Sometimes friends are the only people who will tell you what you don't want to hear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 00:22
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Sometimes friends are the only people who will tell you what you don't want to hear.
ironic that you should say so. i may have said the same thing at the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 04:42
Originally posted by Angrim Angrim wrote:

regarding Ryelle's settlement, i recall an igm from Rill/Ryelle circulating almost immediately among the rooks beating the drum for a show of (military) solidarity vs TCol aggression. 

It may be something different, but it does seem like one rook using confidential information to discredit another rook. 

Originally posted by Angrim Angrim wrote:

says more about the player using it than the player to whom it's being applied.

Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nokigon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 09:00
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

As I said Angrim, you and I had different ways of approaching the matter.  Personally I think if TCol had better friends that were more clear with them that the path they were on was a destructive one, it would have served them better.

Sometimes friends are the only people who will tell you what you don't want to hear.
Clearly, you have never tried to change Kale's mind.

Incidentally, if we can dispose with the patronising rhetoric about how the Dominion have been bad and now they've been put on track...

I regret a lot of things I've done in this game. I regret going to war against PLAN. I regret any diplomacy I've made that was not to my best standard. I regret supporting Kale's land claim IF (and I still am yet to receive any proof or examples of this) it meant that new players were forced out of a region. I could go on.

What I do NOT regret is joining and fighting alongside the Dominion. If I could have to choice to join the war and again, I would do so. We were always aware of the risks we were taking, and Kale was no fool who thought that everything was going to be fine. We always knew that the way we played would either lead to victory or to defeat. And I personally didn't give a damn about that, because this is a game and I play it for my own enjoyment.

And I believe that DB, TCol and T-O are the best friends that I could have in this game. I appreciate them much more than a group of sycophants who would be terrified of any sort of action for fear of the consequences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deranzin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 10:59
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Sometimes friends are the only people who will tell you what you don't want to hear.


Indeed, but it rarely goes vice-versa ... Wink

Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

It may be something different, but it does seem like one rook using confidential information to discredit another rook. 


I do not think discredit is the correct word here because it implies that the said "confidential information" is false or misrepresented, which is something that we cannot really know since it is confidential ... 



Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 23:59
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

 
It may be something different, but it does seem like one rook using confidential information to discredit another rook. 
there was nothing especially confidential about the igm. it may seem so because i will not post it here, but that is as much a reflection of the posting rules as it is respect for igm generally. afaik, it went to a wide audience and there is nothing in it but some ugly characterisations of TCol's policy that Rill/Ryelle would likely have been pleased to share publicly at the time, and i suspect still supports. i brought it up because, in an historical thread, whitewashing this aspect of crow/Dominion relations is intellectually dishonest, and i happen to be in a position to call--because the relationship has been of concern to me for some time, and because i listen. Ryelle settled the square to provoke a response from TCol, and followed up with inflammatory, polarising rhetoric. it was no peace plan gone awry.

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Personally I think if TCol had better friends that were more clear with them that the path they were on was a destructive one, it would have served them better.
to be clear, the path was a destructive one because Rill/Ryelle made it so; it had not been previously. rather than avoid conflict, she deliberately provoked it and did so from within the previously friendly crow confederation, entering both parties into a zero-sum game which resulted in bad feelings and a diplomatic rift that ultimately put them on opposite sides of a war. that can be brilliant for some and reprehensible to others. i'm not in this thread to convince anyone to a ethical position, but rather to correct a mischaracterisation of events that is not supported by the facts as i know them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 00:57
Angrim, it is handy to blame me, but in fact TCol's policies put them at odds with many other alliances as well.  If Kale had been more responsive to my gentler attempts at persuasion, then this destructive war might not have been necessary.  You disagree with my approach, and this is fine -- but it is a matter of opinion rather than of fact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Deranzin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 08:48
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

  If Kale had been more responsive to my gentler attempts at persuasion, then this destructive war might not have been necessary.


Was war necessary then because he wouldn't be persuaded from your "gentler attempts" .?. Shocked

You are not making it sound much better, you know ...

 
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

  You disagree with my approach, and this is fine


Is it really though .?. Kale "disagreed with your approach" and you deemed "war necessary" ... LOL

 
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

  but it is a matter of opinion rather than of fact.


Considering the IGM Angrim has, his view is more fact and yours is more opinion, imho ...



Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyrande Whisperwinds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 11:22
Said it once, will say it again.
This war (and prolly many others b4), started because a handfull of players orchastrated it.
There was player X, who didn't like player Y, and player Z saw he could benefit from the conflict, and bam!
90% of the server got dragged into it.

Glad to be out of this dirty war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 13:58
Deranzin, I think Nokigon has made it clear that Kale was the one who saw war as a solution.  I was on sabbatical from Illy when the war began (and for months beforehand), so persistent efforts to credit and/or blame me for the war don't really have much basis in reality.

I still haven't received a copy of the mail Angrim cited as proving his point; I remember sending all Crow rooks a mail alerting them to the situation, but I honestly don't recall what I said other than "heads up, there may be trouble."  As I have said, Angrim and I had a difference of opinion about how to approach TCol's exclusive claim -- he believed accommodation was the best answer, I thought open and frank opposition was a better approach.

I believed then and I believe now that it is possible to disagree with someone without desiring a war about it.

In some ways I think the disagreement between Kale and me reflects differing philosophies about how to maintain a successful defensive posture in Illyriad.

Kale's approach emphasized exclusive control of territory.  It is possible that this was merely intended as a demonstration of power or sort of ego-driven quest for dominance, but I prefer not to read it that way.  Rather, I think he perceived it as the best way to keep he and his alliance "safe" in a world that he perceived as dangerous.  I think he believed that not having potential adversaries within a core region (everyone who was not Dominion being considered a potential adversary) and maintaining and demonstrating significant military strength was the best way to maintain and strengthen his alliance's position.

I disagree with this approach.  I think that living peacefully with a mixture of people -- even those with whom one might eventually have conflict -- is the soundest approach.  The act of excluding folks with whom one might have conflict, in my view, tends to create more conflict than it avoids.  I also believe that creating an exclusive area of control is not more successful as a military strategy than maintaining a fairly concentrated BUT NON-EXCLUSIVE distribution of cities.

Personally I think that the results of the current conflict have if not vindicated at least tended to support my point of view.  It has been demonstrated that maintaining exclusive control of a region does not imbue one with magical protection.  Some might argue that this is merely because of the great odds, but those odds were significantly more even at the beginning of the war, and the result has been that those alliances that sought to maintain exclusive control of a region did not find that it provided them with a significant advantage over alliances with large concentrations of cities in neighboring regions that did NOT have exclusive control.

Some might argue that by settling a city in the area claimed exclusively by TCol, Ryelle was imposing her view on Kale as much as Kale was attempting to impose his view on others.  This concern was what ultimately made Ryelle choose to remove the city, even after Kale had agreed to let it stay.

A lot of times in Illy (and probably real life too), honest disagreements about what is most effective and/or what is most ethical get lost in ego battles and personality conflicts.  I am as subject to this rule as much as anyone, and I appreciate those who point out to me when I am falling victim to this problem.  I do struggle with whether there might have been a more effective way to express my disagreement in this issue -- perhaps standing back and letting time do its work would have been better.  And yet at the same time, if I passively waited for others to to act, would that necessarily produce a better result?

Interesting questions, and ones I struggle with.
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