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DB in the Coalition War

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Nokigon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 01:43
I'm putting this here because it's long and I feel like it deserves a separate entry rather than just being a small part of my history thread. I will link this thread to it there though.

For DB, the war began when we started fighting PLAN. I won't go into the details of that right now because it's not entirely relevant. However, I soon got a message from a prominent member of the Crow Federation, who was trying to ascertain whether a peaceful solution could be found. He had been asked to do so by other members of the Crowfed, and through some further enquiries I was told that vCrow were concerned that DB's war against PLAN was a war by proxy against what is now being styled as "the Grand Alliance". It was further revealed to me that for some time, there has been pressure in the Crowfed to come into opposition (militarily or otherwise) against the Dominion.

This was of little surprise to me. By the Dominion, the Crow leader was referring to TCol under Kale Weathers. TCol had not enjoyed cordial relations with the Crows, especially nCrow, for a very long time, ever since a settlement dispute with Ryelle brought the two alliances on the brink of conflict and ended any chance of good relations between the two alliances. And of course, it is well known that TCol's fight is, unless Kale wanted otherwise, DB's fight.

Around this time, NC was fighting a war against Celtic Knights, in order to intervene in the XckX conflict against Roman Empire. Quickly, uCrow and Altaira intervened against NC, leaving them outnumbered by a considerable margin. The Coalition assembled in Harmless' embassy, and discussed a course of action. Dittobite wanted Harmless to condemn NC's actions. Harmless refused. Soon, we received leaked information from EE's forum that they were planning on undertaking a war of revenge against Harmless, with a number of allies. With the exception of PLAN, all of the alliances mentioned went to war. We tried to talk to the alliances mentioned by Hathaldir, and they all assured us that they had no intention of fighting.

On the 15th of October, EE declared war on Trivium. At the same time, Kale inherited a settlement dispute (TCol had recently merged with BSH) concerning Robbrit. Robbrit settled within the ten square limit of an inactive and unaffiliated player, Timothy_. This player later became active once again and then joined uCrow, asking Robbrit to move. The response of the leader of BSH was that the town was in Mal Motsha; therefore, it did not have to move. Kale's first warning of this dispute was when Tamaeon messaged him warning that sieges had been sent to Robbrit's city. Since Kale didn't like that Tamaeon hadn't discussed it with him first, he told Tamaeon that any sieges which would land would be broken.

An important point to bear in mind here is that Kale was one of the few Coalition leaders who wanted a war. Harmless, NC, Dlords- the overall atmosphere for them was that they wanted to keep the peace. Kale was keen to get his own back on the Crows, and so he did not take any steps to avoid a war which was, in fairness, fairly inevitable by now.

T-O took this time to complete relationships which had been in the works for a long time, and joined the Dominion.

Three sieges were sent by Tamaeon. The first was broken. The second was a feint. But before the third siege landed, uCrow declared war on TCol on the 26th of October. Later that night, vCrow also declared war. The rest of the Dominion retaliated towards them, and we quickly planned our next operations.

On the 28th of October, H? declared war on EE over a technicality relating to EE continuing the Consone war. On the 30th, DARK, Soon, Shade and vCrow all declared war on Harmless. Different alliances over the course of the next few weeks and months followed suit, eventually leaving Shade, Soon, VICX, Dark, Bane, vCrow, CalCr, uCrow, nCrow, EE, Aesir, SM, XckX, ALT and NAAM to fight RES, H?, Dlords, NC, TCol, T-O, DB and TVM. Most of the RES conflicts were separate to the wider Coalition conflict, but this overall gave the Grand Alliance a 2.5x size advantage.

However, at the time Kale and I believed that we were fighting a group of alliances roughly equal, or perhaps slightly larger than us. As such, we were confident that we could beat them. We then made the same catastrophic tactical error- we chose targets that were close and large, whether they had good siegable terrain or not. DB lost the better part of a million troops at Sinde, Taelin's city, in a small forest. I don't know how many troops TCol lost, but it was a siege on plains where the Grand Alliance lost nearly a million troops. As such I estimate TCol losses to be about 1.5mil in number.... Although they did at least successfully capture their city, which DB were not able to do.

This left us an unfortunate situation- in one action, DB had lost about three quarters of our siege troops (although our cav and inf were still more or less intact). Luckily, volunteers joined us from SCH to boost our spearmen numbers. However, DB took very few siege actions in the war. We preferred from then on to use our RT tactic rather than take the risk of a siege.

The most significant siege was the siege of Stuebenus' Kingdom of the Dwarves. About 2mil, if memory serves me well, vCrow troops started a siege on the large mountain. DB planned to do nothing more than send small nuisance raids (prior to the war, an attack of 100 cav would always kill a catapult) but Kale sent in his cavalry, losing vast numbers of knights on unfavourable terrain. After this, he left the game, citing poor health as reasons. He left TCol in a state of turmoil which Zenorra and Tacardi managed to cope with extraordinarily well.

DB at this point was weakened but not beaten by a long way. Our next main opposition came in the form of attacks from Bane and local vCrow players such as 714. Together they killed large numbers of our men, and started up sets of direct catapult attacks on players like Endoria, Vertigo and Carl Zeis. Their work is, at the time of writing, still evident. We retaliated with attacks of our own and the occasional siege, such as the siege of g213 (which due to one of my people hitting siege instead of occupy only led to us damaging the town rather than destroying it) and the siege with TO of The Ridges, which cost us once again large numbers of troops. 

As 2014 came around, we entered a new phase of the war- an entirely defensive one. TVM were being annihilated in the north and Dlords' northern hub was under serious attack. TCol was being badly pressed in MM and any isolated players were under serious risk. Everyone expected alliances like EE or BANE to start focussing on DB in earnest. This happened eventually but much later than expected.

In early 2014, TCol announced their plan to surrender to vCrow. After a lot of discussion with Zenorra and Tacardi, who were personally against surrender but were voicing the opinion of some very vocal players in TCol, we persuaded them not to surrender. The vocal players soon left after that. As such I, as well as a Harmless and an NC player, moved our alts across to help with war time planning for TCol. However, there was little to do except to constantly defend.

I have already told the story of what happens next on these forums (look for the "Grandpa tell me a story" thread) so I'll rush through this. Two reversals of fortune made victory impossible- the defeat at Ely and the EE advance south, both of which took all of the troops the Dominion had left. We soon surrendered. Some day I will be at liberty to reveal those terms.


Edited by Nokigon - 21 Mar 2014 at 20:15
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Rill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 02:02
I believe the settlement dispute you cite was with HUGcr rather than with nCrow, although nCrow in general was opposed to the attempt to exclusively claim Mal Motsha for a particular alliance or group of alliances -- as were Crow alliances in general, including HUGcr, mCrow and others.

The Dominion made a decision to drop longstanding NAPs with nCrow after that settlement dispute had been resolved in favor of the Dominion (after Ryelle graciously agreed to have her city razed, in spite of the fact that its placement was consistent with common practice at that time, being more than 10 squares from any other city).

In fact, as I recall it was you Nokigon who informed nCrow that the Dominion felt it could no longer maintain NAPs -- NAPs that had remained in place during the settlement discussions and which nCrow was committed to honoring.

I myself (personally rather than as a matter of nCrow policy) did not find the Dominion's exclusive claim to Mal Motsha to be acceptable, especially given history with regard to that particular territory, and I had long had concerns about TCol's actions with regard to new players and small, independent alliances in the area.  I was absent in the months leading up to the war, so I cannot say to what degree similar objections on the part of others might have affected the course of events.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nokigon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 02:26
I will be honest, I cannot speak with utter certainty on the affairs about the settlement dispute. My records on that affair have been wiped with my old laptop so I will defer to those who remember it better than I do.

The decision to drop NAP was something which we agreed on unanimously. I was the spokesperson for the Dominion because we felt it would be less confrontational coming from a mouth other than Kale's. We did it because the settlement dispute had scared the crap out of us... Months and months of good relations had been brushed away over one incident (and I seemed to recall that the city was just within the boundaries of ten squares).

The Dominion, with the possible exception of BSH under Rorgash, has never bullied new players in MM. That is not a stance I, Kale or Pellinell will EVER support. If you can give me examples, maybe I can do something about them. However, I would be amazed if examples are forthcoming- because they never are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 02:34
You are wrong on the city placement -- it was outside the 10 squares, as was acknowledged by Kale and the Dominion at the time.

With regard to my concerns about actions against small players and alliances in Mal Motsha, I will also have to plead ignorance on the exact names, since much time has elapsed since they occurred.  It was a laptop ago for me as well -- perhaps a great statement about the longevity of relationships in Illy, in that they outlive our hardware. Wink    What is most important is that it is not happening now and hopefully will not happen in the future under the new leadership of TCol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bansisdead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 09:31
An accurate and unbiased account of the events which led up to this current war, great job Noki!

btw rill TCol are not bullies.


Edited by bansisdead - 21 Mar 2014 at 09:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyrande Whisperwinds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 10:05
I'm enjoying this records of history very much. Even thou i think some minor (but important) details are missing, this thread just confirms something.
This war started because a handfull of ppl wanted it. Pure manipulation of some minds who wanted the war, then claimed "alliances interests" and dragged everybody in. Personal disputs and inanimosities (sp?).
Player X hated player Z and found a good excuse to make war, being backned by their alliances.
Imo, everything that happened, that was given as an excuse to start the war, could have been solved in diff ways, in non-belic way, if there was any intention to do it at all. Which there wasn't, for some ppl. Their intention was to orchestrate a war all along. And it was somewhat fun to see ppl doing exactly what we predicted, having that in mind.

As far an DB and TCol are involved, i must say i got off this war with more respect for them that i had when i got in in the first place. One of my alt cities (who didn't take part in the war) is located right in Tcol's and DB's beards. When he had to re-join nCrow to make an exodus (and stated that he didn't take part in war in profile) both Tcol and DB left him alone. Then ofc some other alliance didn't bother with it and went for it, but that's another story...

Kudos for you both for that.


Edited by Tyrande Whisperwinds - 21 Mar 2014 at 10:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KillerPoodle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 14:24
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

after Ryelle graciously agreed to have her city razed, in spite of the fact that its placement was consistent with common practice at that time, being more than 10 squares from any other city).


Even though the TCol's preference for people to not settle in a particular area was known and had been discussed with various crow leadership without an issue being raised, Ryelle (you) deliberately moved a city into that zone to antagonize them, ended up almost causing a war (including threats of such from you).

Hardly "gracious" behavior. More like deliberately bullying someone who's policies you didn't like because you knew you had the crowfed backing you up.

Also - I believe Ryelle had the option to move the city instead of having it razed.




Edited by KillerPoodle - 21 Mar 2014 at 14:25
"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM

"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zenorra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 15:27
Greetings Illyriadians!

It's all Kale's fault! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Thanks for writing this, Noki. Very informative!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 15:36
Bullying?  I think Ryelle intended it more as nonviolent resistance to what she saw as an unwise attempt to claim exclusivity in a region.  Peacefully settling a city a respectful distance from other cities is hardly bullying.

With regard to threats of war, what was stated was that the city would be defended, and that to attack it was an act of war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Angrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 16:24
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Bullying?  I think Ryelle intended it more as nonviolent resistance to what she saw as an unwise attempt to claim exclusivity in a region.
"antagonising" is more correct than "bullying". as Rill has confirmed here, her settlement was intentionally provocative.
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