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Topic ClosedCrime & Punishment & Orcs (a.k.a. BSH)

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Silent/Steadfast View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:58
Honestly, this entire situation would be so much easier if BSH admitted that Tigre was wrong to try to take Vermino's sov in the first place.  Sure, the duel would continue.  But at least Vermino would feel that he had been justified.  Raata offers peace, but his peace involves Vermino paying for what Tigre started.  He has confirmed on the forum that Tigre's city would stay as it is, with Vermino's sov.  The commencement of the duel was not the beginning of this conflict, as BSH claims, but the taking of Vermino's sov.  
"Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM)
"SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 20:53
Originally posted by invictusa invictusa wrote:

Apologies if I am missing the bigger point here.  If you agree (and especially if you initiate the challenge), to a duel, and after each opponent takes ten steps, turns, and fires; you lose much more face by claiming that the duel was unfair in the first place than if you just accept your losses, learn from your mistakes, and move on.
I think any moral high ground you before had was lost to any consequences of this conflict you agreed to enter with Tigre, unless there was some agreed upon rules of engagement.  Tigre could be asking a lot more from you I think, and would be his/her right.
 
Apologies accepted. The biggest point is not the duel or Tigre razing my cities, which he will do. The two main points are:
  1. Tigre initiated the conflict taking by force what was mine and had never been his. His demeanor since the beginning of the situation has been despicable. Nobody moves 4.5 squares from another town without expecting a conflict. I even let him stay, fool me, but he wanted everything.
  2. Most importantly, I was accepting his unreasonable conditions (since he started all this and I shouldn't pay reparations at all on top of losing the sov.) but when he learned I could afford more, he tried to milk me after setting up his own conditions which I was accepting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 21:17
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Interesting!

bul·ly 1 
n. pl. bul·lies
1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
2. A hired ruffian; a thug.
3. A pimp.
4. Archaic A fine person.
5. Archaic A sweetheart.

So by you bravely extending your "services" to Vermino against Tigre which point in deffinition would apply, perhaps a sweetheart? (Tigre is half your size, you do offer yourself for hire, not to mention Tigre lost most of his armies in this duel....)
 
This had escaped my notice, Bonaparta. I see you've done your homework after I accussed you of bullying. So now you know you are a bully for bashing me in the head with your 37k T2 cavalry being so much bigger than I am. But you take a very loose definition. You are not a bully when you stop someone from comitting a violent crime even if you're stronger, only when you take advantage of your strenght to abuse a victim. Go read Olweus as I advised you.
 
I must also give a fair warning, least people would take your word for the truth. Tigre has not lost that much, he's sieging me with 65k troops, 40 catapults and some rams. It will end quickly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 23:06
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

****
bul·ly 1 
n. pl. bul·lies
1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
2. A hired ruffian; a thug.
3. A pimp.
4. Archaic A fine person.
5. Archaic A sweetheart.

****
 I never knew the Pimp context.  So when someone is said to be bullying, they might be thinking they are being "pimping" which I understand in current jargon is a good thing.  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 23:33
+ 10 man points to invictusa.

spot on.


Edited by bansisdead - 29 Aug 2012 at 23:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2012 at 00:20
funny stuff, really.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2012 at 00:31
Originally posted by Vermino Vermino wrote:

Originally posted by invictusa invictusa wrote:

Apologies if I am missing the bigger point here.  If you agree (and especially if you initiate the challenge), to a duel, and after each opponent takes ten steps, turns, and fires; you lose much more face by claiming that the duel was unfair in the first place than if you just accept your losses, learn from your mistakes, and move on.
I think any moral high ground you before had was lost to any consequences of this conflict you agreed to enter with Tigre, unless there was some agreed upon rules of engagement.  Tigre could be asking a lot more from you I think, and would be his/her right.
 
Apologies accepted. The biggest point is not the duel or Tigre razing my cities, which he will do. The two main points are:
  1. Tigre initiated the conflict taking by force what was mine and had never been his. His demeanor since the beginning of the situation has been despicable. Nobody moves 4.5 squares from another town without expecting a conflict. I even let him stay, fool me, but he wanted everything.
  2. Most importantly, I was accepting his unreasonable conditions (since he started all this and I shouldn't pay reparations at all on top of losing the sov.) but when he learned I could afford more, he tried to milk me after setting up his own conditions which I was accepting.

Vermino, I would like to come at this again with the hopes that everyone has cooled down somewhat. I am trying to be measured and diplomatic, here, but there's not much for me to work with while your only professed intention is to finance the downfall of our entire alliance.

First off, let me say that there is no plan to raze all of your cities, nor was there ever such a plan. I don't know why you keep claiming such things. Personally, I had hoped this situation would be resolved before the current siege could cause much damage, but with all this commotion, that has proven difficult.

Second, let me reiterate a point I have already made, and that was put more succinctly by invictusa: for reasons good or bad, you agreed to the duel, so you must accept the consequences. That is just the way the world works.

Finally, let me address the other elephant in the room here, namely your indignation that tigre settled so close to you to begin with. Two things need to be said:

(a) I would be upset too if someone settled that close to me without asking first. In particular, tigre should have asked first. So let me offer you my personal apology for that infraction.

(b) The situation would have been a lot easier to deal with if mediation had been attempted WAY back when tigre first arrived on the scene. Instead, the first time anyone in BSH heard any of these complaints from you was months after the fact, and worse, in the midst of your sending waves of diplo attacks at our member. You met tigre's lack of consideration with hotheadedness, and predictably, the result is a mess.

Now, in light of the fact that you agreed to the duel, I still stand by my earlier proposal that you and tigre revert to the original agreement, and you pay him 50M in gold or equivalent resources. It's not nothing, but it's not backbreaking either, especially for you.

As a separate issue, I am willing to discuss with you, privately, your problem with tigre's nearby city. These kinds of discussion are relatively commonplace in Illy. We can negotiate as if none of this fighting ever happened---as if you just sent me a mail yesterday saying, "Hey, I just realized this guy tigre settled too close to me. I know it's been a couple of months but I'm really upset by this." You have my word that I will negotiate with you as I would anyone else who came to me with an analogous grievance. Of course, if you accept my offer only to find that I have sneakily double-crossed you, you can always return to the public forum to reveal me for a liar.

I assure you, however, that I am no liar.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2012 at 00:47
 Hi, I may sound silly, but if everyone was here so good as they claim to be, a peaceful solution could be achieved.
 I believe it should include these 2 points:
 1. Tigre's city moving away from the square at 4.5 squares from the city of Vermino. and that square or close ones not bein occupied by Vermino or other members of his alliance. As it seems clearly accepted that this short distance may be unacceptable, even by members of his alliance.
 2. Vermino to pay a compensation to Tigre. I would say 50, or 100 million gold, at max.
 I also believe that if a peaceful solution is not reached, both sides could expect larger costs (including Tigre's city).
 If both parts do not think this proposal is so incoherent, you could start negotiating with this as a basis.
 Cheers,
 TH

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Kale View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2012 at 01:08
Vermino, I would like to come at this again with the hopes that everyone has cooled down somewhat. I am trying to be measured and diplomatic, here, but there's not much for me to work with while your only professed intention is to finance the downfall of our entire alliance.

First off, let me say that there is no plan to raze all of your cities, nor was there ever such a plan. I don't know why you keep claiming such things. Personally, I had hoped this situation would be resolved before the current siege could cause much damage, but with all this commotion, that has proven difficult.

Second, let me reiterate a point I have already made, and that was put more succinctly by invictusa: for reasons good or bad, you agreed to the duel, so you must accept the consequences. That is just the way the world works.

Finally, let me address the other elephant in the room here, namely your indignation that tigre settled so close to you to begin with. Two things need to be said:

(a) I would be upset too if someone settled that close to me without asking first. In particular, tigre should have asked first. So let me offer you my personal apology for that infraction.

(b) The situation would have been a lot easier to deal with if mediation had been attempted WAY back when tigre first arrived on the scene. Instead, the first time anyone in BSH heard any of these complaints from you was months after the fact, and worse, in the midst of your sending waves of diplo attacks at our member. You met tigre's lack of consideration with hotheadedness, and predictably, the result is a mess.

Now, in light of the fact that you agreed to the duel, I still stand by my earlier proposal that you and tigre revert to the original agreement, and you pay him 50M in gold or equivalent resources. It's not nothing, but it's not backbreaking either, especially for you.

As a separate issue, I am willing to discuss with you, privately, your problem with tigre's nearby city. These kinds of discussion are relatively commonplace in Illy. We can negotiate as if none of this fighting ever happened---as if you just sent me a mail yesterday saying, "Hey, I just realized this guy tigre settled too close to me. I know it's been a couple of months but I'm really upset by this." You have my word that I will negotiate with you as I would anyone else who came to me with an analogous grievance. Of course, if you accept my offer only to find that I have sneakily double-crossed you, you can always return to the public forum to reveal me for a liar.

I assure you, however, that I am no liar.

Spot on Brother.


Edited by Kale - 30 Aug 2012 at 01:10
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Vermino View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2012 at 01:12
jordigui: Thanks for your proposal. I would have accepted it at any time before or after the attacks, although the chain of events began with the initial aggressive moves by Tigre. Unluckily, I'm not dealing with someone reasonable as you are.
 
Originally posted by Raatalagk Raatalagk wrote:

As a separate issue, I am willing to discuss with you, privately, your problem with tigre's nearby city. These kinds of discussion are relatively commonplace in Illy. We can negotiate as if none of this fighting ever happened---as if you just sent me a mail yesterday saying, "Hey, I just realized this guy tigre settled too close to me. I know it's been a couple of months but I'm really upset by this." You have my word that I will negotiate with you as I would anyone else who came to me with an analogous grievance. Of course, if you accept my offer only to find that I have sneakily double-crossed you, you can always return to the public forum to reveal me for a liar.

I assure you, however, that I am no liar.
Ok, I sent you an in-game message, although we can discuss it here if you prefer. I have no hopes but talking can't do harm. My 19k town is as good as gone, but I'm intrigued on what you have to say. Let's see if you have something that might work or this is just public relations.
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