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Court of Petitioners

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Ruarc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ruarc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 21:46
Originally posted by Emerson Emerson wrote:

Why can't we have a semblance of law in Illyriad? What would be the harm? Sure, it changes strategies and, maybe, a little of the balance of power. Would that really be so bad?
 
Three brief points and an overall comment:
 
1. You always need a better argument than 'why not?'.
 
2. What you're suggesting isn't any different from the current situation: those with power dictate the 'laws' of the game. Power comes in many forms - diplomacy, resources, activity - but the idea that you can dictate the 'laws' of the game without that power, or that people will give you that power because it makes sense or is fair, is naive. 
 
3. I think you shot yourself in the foot by using the word 'law'. You'd have had a far better chance of making a relatable argument to the current meta if you stuck to a more accurate phase like 'conventions' and referenced things like the 10 square rule and not attacking new players, or made specific comment as to what you wanted to have happen within the new meta. Basing your argument on something concrete is better than offering a vague new contraption with prickly words like 'law' to replace tried and tested methods of diplomacy and power. 
 
On a general note - 
 
I assume that what you're actually getting at has something to do with land claims? Some alliances have been more accommodating in that than others, but it's difficult to comment on any particular situation without specifics.
 
Personally I think this is a particularly interesting time to be playing the game. Maybe not as interesting as the first land claims in the BL (heady days indeed!) but interesting nonetheless. Some long-established notions no longer have the power behind them that they once did. That change is testimony to the fact that Illyriad is still an evolving and active game, and that's a good thing irrespective of the outcome of that change.
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WAFFLES View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WAFFLES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 22:15
I have it on good authority this involves SIN. Apparently an alliance reacted a little roughly against a very small players indiscretions and SIN retaliated for the smaller player. Now that alliance is crying foul.

In regards to Ruarc’s comments, I agree with his points. Laws require a means of enforcement.

Edited by WAFFLES - 03 Apr 2018 at 22:16
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Emerson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emerson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 22:58
The situation with SIN was within the context of the "old" rules that can be found in the forum's dusty archives. A player attacked an alliance member, unprovoked, and the alliance retaliated and punished the offender. That was convention and should have been an end to it. 
The offender apparently bitched about it and SIN attacked the alliance. Fair? No. But it happened, it's over with. Should it have happened? Probably not, but who does the alliance go to when the leadership of SIN refused to even acknowledge the situation? Hence my point.
Ruarc's point about laws requiring enforcement is valid. But when there are no laws and "convention" is ignored or laughed at, then what?
I put forth an idea - only an idea. No hard and fast "rules", nothing like that. If the Devs consider it, great. If not, we play on.
However, it cannot be ignored that the game has changed a lot since 2012, 2014, 2015, etc. I just started 10 months ago and the game has morphed a bit since then. Newbies are looking at the forum for insight and are told to chat in GC for help. Yet, I have witnessed exchanges about how the tournaments are boring, they don't come often enough and how some have bragged about waiting for the protective rainbow to come off a newbie so they can grab their city. Is this what everybody really wants? Have I witnessed this happening? No. But the idea that someone would actually post something like that in GC and his/her friends just laughed it off is unsettling.
I am representing the small players, the players that want to play the game in peace. I'm probably large enough to take care of myself. But we have members in our alliance with less than 3 cities and 5K population that are not interested in PvP. Our alliance cannot help them if they are attacked - we couldn't defend an attack by a choirboy at this time.
The thing is, they are relying on the conventions established years ago and finding, to their detriment, that the older, larger players no longer adhere to those conventions that don't directly benefit them. So, where is the redress?
Everyone is criticizing my idea, yet I don't see any constructive arguments being put forward. How about trying to add to the narrative in a positive way instead of just tearing me down? I'm open to suggestions and maybe, just maybe, we can all come up with a consensus idea that we can put to the Devs.
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 23:09
This entire argument has crossed into the absurd. Emerson, the powerful alliances are not obligated to give you power simply because you think you should have it. There are many accepted customs in Illyriad. Small players and new players are very rarely attacked without a reason. The fact that you have provided no details about your situation--other than that you feel "bullied"--makes me think that your mouth wrote some checks that your armies can't cash. Just the way you accused people of supporting bullying, without even telling us who the bullies are, rather supports that assumption.

Nobody steals cities from newer, active players. There are hundreds of high quality inactive and abandoned cities scattered across the map. Your entire vague explanation rings false.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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Emerson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emerson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 23:38
Where did I ask for power, Ten Kulch? Once again, I am attacked but no constructive ideas are given.

You assume that I feel bullied, yet I never said that. I clarified my situation above: I am representing the small players and alliances that do feel bullied.

You ask me for specifics but give none of your own. Nobody steals cities from newer, active players? How do you know? Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it fact. However, I DID see those posts in GC about a month or so ago. Just because I can't recall WHO posted them, that means I'm lying? 

You make a lot of assumptions about me and my situation. Instead of ripping me apart, how about some nice, positive constructive ideas? Obviously you don't agree with mine, so what would be your solution? Status quo?

Well, that works for you. If you queried every player in Illyriad, I'm betting you get a different answer.
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 23:57
Originally posted by Emerson Emerson wrote:

You ask me for specifics but give none of your own. Nobody steals cities from newer, active players? How do you know? Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it fact.

I have played this game for six years. Most people capturing cities prefer completed research, which is available in established cities, such as those afforded by established inactive or abandoned accounts. I also helped to run a training alliance for quite a while. During that time, I came into contact with many new players. Nobody ever complained about having cities seized by other players, nor did anyone even mention having heard of that happening. There is no real incentive and considerable downside (in the form of community retaliation), so it isn't really done.

I cannot conclusively prove the absence of something with 100% certainty. That is logically impossible. However, given my knowledge of the game, new players, and the community, I feel confident saying that the situation you propose is a very rare occurrence, if indeed it happens at all. Due to the way that logic works, you can much more easily prove a positive assertion. You are the one in a position to disprove my perception, since offering actual evidence that a new player was attacked to sieze their city would be an actual data point.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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Mr. Ubiquitous Feral View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Ubiquitous Feral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:00
Start over, Emerson. Tell us what actually happened and who was involved. Facts, please. As far as people talking in GC, I see it too. It is people joking with each other. They aren't really going to take from a newb unless the newb is an alt or the newb is a troll. And stop changing the story. Tell the truth and stick to it.
I am a Machine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:03
My suggestion is to leave things exactly as they are.

It boils down to the same old discussion: do traders/crafters have the right to live in peace? Imho the answer is only if they can manage to preserve that peace themselves (by military might, shrewd diplomacy, bribes, whatever). So, if it happens that trading alliance nr.1248 with 4 members that login roughly twice a week runs afoul of a major military alliance they need to find a way to deal with that without looking to the devs to solve their problems.

On a sidenote: It may sound harsh, but sometimes alliances are just not viable. There are a ridiculous amount of tiny alliances that all proclaim to have more or less the same values (mostly: we are a peaceful alliance of traders...) and yet they insist on remaining seperate entities devoid of even the slightest influence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emerson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:17
I have no problem with your experience. In fact, I've gained a lot of knowledge from your blog.

Just as you cannot conclusively prove the absence of something with 100% certainty, I don't have total recall or photographic memory so I can't give you names of players making those posts in GC. Let's not belabor the point.

As for community retaliation, I would like to believe that. It would be nice, but most of the members of our alliance believe that asking for help against unprovoked military or diplo attacks in GC just paints a target on our backs. There have been 3 incidents in just the past 5 months against our alliance with no provocation on our part. We were following convention like we were supposed to.

But those are over and done with. Assurances that the community will protect those with no ambition to play PvP are well and good until the attacks happen. My idea was to have a form of redress - formalized - that players and alliances can use to ask for help, be it the community at large or a sovereign power.

You, as an older player, must have some ideas that will work without completely turning Illyriad on its head. That's all I'm asking for here.
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:39
Originally posted by Emerson Emerson wrote:

Assurances that the community will protect those with no ambition to play PvP are well and good until the attacks happen.

Nobody assures that. The community standard is that we don't assault new players, excluding ones with atrocious manners. Established alliances and players are on their own. Sometimes white knights will ride to rescue victims of injustice, but that's largely just a fanciful notion proposed by irrelevant parties.
Originally posted by Emerson Emerson wrote:

You, as an older player, must have some ideas that will work without completely turning Illyriad on its head. That's all I'm asking for here.

1. Excerise good diplomacy. If you are severely outmatched by an opponent, then I recommend deference and a painful degree of politeness. Focusing on the unfairness is counterproductive.
2. Don't refuse to roll over unless you can withstand the consequences of fighting.
3. GC and the forums are worse than useless for getting military aid. Normally all it does is inflame or delight the attacker. Back channels are best for courting allies. Incidentally, you should have allies before you actually require them. Nobody wants to risk consequences from trying to save a doomed situation. The best way to have allies is to be an attractive ally yourself.

Your overall assumption is that some kind of NPC "court" would help you. But any game mechanism is likely to be dominated by the most powerful alliances. The best solution is to deal with these kinds of situations gracefully, because lacking military power, your personal abilities at diplomacy are the only thing standing between your alliance and ruin.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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