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A Declaration of Military action.

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Lord Stanley View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 16:55
To our fellow Illyrians,

It is with great sadness that we must announce to you all that we are initialing hostilities against player Hiei. He is the founder of the alliance Coin and, as of now, not in any alliance. 

Historically, training alliances have been considered a protected class of alliance who's members have been shielded from hostile activity to allow them to grow and learn in peace. We continue the tradition of a training alliance and seek to avoid hostilities with any players or alliances in Illy.  In this case, we did attempt numerous times to settle this diplomatically. We were met with venom, mistrust, outright paranoia, and military hostility in the form of diplo and military attacks.  Our last attempt to discuss the matter was met with a "there is nothing more to discuss" answer and the razing of two of our cities. Because of our Training Alliance status and usual peaceful demeanor, we felt the need to explain our actions to the Illy world so you can understand why we needed to act and see we had no other choice. Additionally, because we are not affiliated with a Big Brother/Sister alliance, we need to handle this on our own. 

The facts are fairly simple.
1) Player Kayteen needed to no longer be active growing and building in Illy due to real life committment. He is planning to continue to be social. His second account Aurelious was in ACHE, so he donated both accounts to be used to help new players grow.
2) Sitters from our leadership council were set and both accounts were moved to our little sister alliance Cobra. This alliance is where we put accounts that will be harvested by our players so that we don't need to have players jump in and out of ACHE to siege them.
3) A few of Kayteen's cities were in Kal Tirikan near to where Hiei's cities are. Kayteen's cities were there before Hiei's were. One city, HoneyComb was 8.2sq from Hiei's city 3.Northern Saloon.
4) Prior to us starting giving them away, Hiei had been running theft operations over and over against all three of the cities near him.
5) One of our new players, Detritus, was assigned Honeycomb and began his siege. Hiei saw this and contacted us to demand that he move the city away and rationalized that he had some claim to it because it was under 10sq from his city even though it was there before him.
6) There were several exchanges between myself and ACHE Council members and Hiei. Initially and ongoing through this process, many overtures were made to seek peace, incuding even a temporary visit to ACHE to meet the group and possibly recruit some of our trainees for his alliance. At that point, we were under the impression that He had agreed to allow our taking the cities, as we had informed him that the players would very likely be moving the cities given how far away their position was. 
7) With approximately 300 pop to go to capture, without any warning or communication, Hiei destroyed Detritus' siege army.
8) We contacted him again and he gave us no real answer as to why there was a change except to say that he was insulted that he was not offered some form of compensation for the taking of the city and that we were buillying him, which included forcing him to join ACHE or some such paranoid rationalization.
9) A few days later 2 cat armies sieged the town, Honeycomb. Fortunately, the sitting player had enough left over troops to destroy both sieges.
10)Last weekened the real Kayteen logged in and sent Hiei a message asking him why he was doing this. He, in a more polite way told him to go f himself.
11) A day or two later multiple spies, thieves and armies attacked both Honeycomb, the city 8.2sq away, but also Donut, which was about 18 or so sq away. The sitter dodged his attacks and even sent the army to a distant spot. Hiei followed those troops and sent an army to kill them.  We contacted him to try to understand what was going on and we were told that there was no more point to discussion. Later that same day 2 siege armies were placed on Donut, the further town. He razed that town. It is our belief that he chose this time to attack as he knew we are participating in the tournament and figured our troops would either be busy or dead.
12) A day or so later he repeated the same thing at Honeycomb and razed that city.

What you will notice is that at no time up until now, did we attack him or his cities in any way. So in summary, he attempted 3 sieges and razed 2 cities because he felt that a town, we were given and were in the process of giving to recruits, was his because it resided within 10sq of his city. 

These are the facts of the issue and are unrefutable. We have copies of most of the communications, both in-game and Skype messages. I also have screenshots showing the area with our 2 towns and his towns, before our 2 were razed. It is because of this unprovoked hostility that we feel that we have no other choice but to take military action. We have a right to protect our members and our property from attack and damage.  To add to his arrogance, he recently wrote this message after he razed our 2 towns.
Sent By: Hiei
Received By: LukeSky [ACHE]
Date: 08 Apr 2017 23:21
I would rather no fight you guys. This is foolishness and childish but if i have to I will defend myself. Go away stop harassing me.


We have no issue with any of the members of the alliance he founded, Coin, and will not direct any hostile action toward them in any way, as long as they do not assist him. We will not be declaring war on Coin, or any other alliance, because we have no gripe with any other players. 

My Best to you all in game and RL.

Respectfully submtted for the Council of ACHE by 
Lord Stanley
Oracle of ACHE


Edited by Lord Stanley - 09 Apr 2017 at 17:52
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Hopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 17:04
Full support! Let's protect Illyyriad's exceptional feature: maintaining an open game 'ecology', where new players are allowed time and space to grow in peace, and decide on their game life in a respectful way...

[disclaimer: in another avatar, I was involved in WET/ACHE alliance]


Edited by Hopper - 09 Apr 2017 at 18:18
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Lord Stanley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord Stanley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 17:55
this is a screenshot of the two towns he razed.

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Grrosh O'ssk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grrosh O'ssk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 19:25
Sniff, sniff, sniff...hmmm.  I smell a 'multi-accounter' in Kal Tirikan.  Such Kaos now.
"Mabaj bot ob armauk"

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Hopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 19:36
sorry, sucker, I've been respectful of  Illy rules since as many years as I joined in --- get lost if you can't believe it, if you disagree.


Edited by Hopper - 09 Apr 2017 at 19:37
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Hiei View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hiei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 02:31
I believe you forget to mention after I declined the right to capture a town in my 10 squares the second time and attacked the camp days later because the town was still being leveled up. I also did not attack the other sieged city being sieged by your player, as if I am aggressive towards new players. My negotiations for the second round were obviously ignored and met with insult and left me no choice bu to attack the siege camp. Oh, and that in my negotations I even stated you could exodus the town like you planned and that was fine.. but why didn't you say you would? What was the reason you didn't want to say you would exodus the town? Communication is supposed to be clear in negotiations and I waited days later to even attack.

My only reasoning for razing the towns were after I scouted the town I saw "bye hiei" as a siege army name and that I took as a threat to me and I don't trust your leadership to make decisions, as well as you guys putting your players in the middle of political issues. Communication is a two way street but you guys decided you want to do what ever you want. I believe it's because you want to classify yourselves as a training alliance but in reality this issue is from the top players in the alliance in leadership.. Not your members. So who are you really protecting is my question.

If you would have been more open to negotiation this could have been avoided. Next time, don't give Dramaqueen diplomacy duties because she is not very good at it. What is the extent of this war? You guys don't seem very friendly like you want to make yourselves or else this wouldn't even happen.


Edited by Hiei - 10 Apr 2017 at 23:32
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Lord Stanley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord Stanley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 12:44
1) you had no claim to any of the cities at all. They are not yours regardless of where they were located. You had NO right to them, so we did not have to promise you anything.

2) You attacked a newb siege camp without warning, so yeah, you do attack newbs.

3) You did not decline to capture one as one was not offered to you and being within 10sq does not make it yours.

4) We did tell you that they would likely be exo'ed but we were not required to promise anything.

5) So you are trying to push the delusion that you razed 2 towns because you saw a threat? You saw the army name because you sent thieves, scouts, spies, assassins and military attacks multiple times prior to the army's name change. So you want everyone to believe that you felt threatened by the 100 or so infantry and 0 cats that you saw on your scout reports? I can see how those 100 infantry really were a threat to the 10K sentinels you sent to clear them

6) We were open to negotiation and discussed many different things. The reality is that we owed you nothing, but you rejected everything we said and kept going on about being insulted because we were not offering you some sort of compensation for giving a city to a newb, that was given to us by it's owner.

7) I think calling for negotiations after you attacked multiple times and razed 2 cities comes off as you being a coward. You raze our cities and then cry about being an innocent victim. Bullsh*t! Your note to LukeSky above says it all. You claim, after you razed 2 cities, that do not want to fight us. A little late to say you don't want to fight, don't you think? We never attacked you in ANY way prior to you razing those 2 cities.

8) Why would we tell you, or anyone else, our strategy? You will know it when it happens.

9) We are not perfect, but we are nice. You can ask the vast majority of the people with whom we have interacted. On the other hand, the general consensus I have gotten from other players about you can be summed up in one word, Thief.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote John Louis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 22:26
I came across this post whilst reading on the forum.

Only contributing my personal opinion as this is a public forum and statements have been made to the public - who quietly or otherwise will opine.

I don't know any of the players involved and have nothing to gain from this personally, so I guess ultimately I shouldn't really care what happens.

HOWEVER

It seems 'permission' is being sought from the Illy Community by an entire alliance to give one player a 'bloody nose' as punishment for his actions. I assume it is just a bloody nose as the extent of the punishment has not been disclosed.

I do not agree that this retribution should be automatic, there is indeed still scope for diplomacy even though this may now not be the preferred option for some perhaps justifiably angry players.

Firstly - I think Hiei could be asked to 'pay' appropriate compensation by ACHE. The compensation should be fairly calculated. Whatever compensation is requested, there should also be a gold amount alternative (also to be fairly calculated) that can be 'paid'.

Secondly - If Hiei refuses to 'pay' the requested compensation then ACHE can 'declare war'; though I would urge caution and no excessive retribution.

Thirdly - Can this be done chivalrously? I would like to see ACHE use what it has learnt as a training alliance and not force Hiei out of the game. I would like to see an imaginative way (i.e. ACHE assigning only one veteran player to combat Hiei) and possibly continue the training alliance theme and constructively 'teach' Hiei a lesson.

Ultimately, maybe this is none of my business, but perhaps my proposal is a better alternative to metaphorically 'beating up' a player's cities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bogbreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2017 at 13:05
John,. we tried to sort this out in the early stages, Hiei basically gave us the middle finger salute, it need never have gotten to this stage and if you ask any of the Illy community you will find that we have never been aggressive with anyone, it is not our style, but we also have a commitment to our members and we have to look out for them otherwise there is no point in us being an alliance.
 This is not an isolated case with this individual, he has a history of such actions under a number of different names and has been put back to the Newb ring on at least one occasion.
Ache is in contact with the members of the alliance that he formed and it appears that he has told them a number of untruths. We are in communication with them and it seems that they are mostly very young , unaware of Illy basics and easily lead astray. Ache is at the moment doing their level best to try and help them out of the mess that he has left them in.
To answer you later statement, we cannot teach Hiei anything..he has repeatedly offended under a number of different accounts, each time getting to the point where he is removed from Illy. If we allow him to just get a smack on the wrist and a bit of a telling off he will just re offend. There is no doubt that he will come back under a different alias and do the same thing over again, it is a never ending circle of events. All we can do for now is take the action that we are to regain compensation for the loss of the 2 towns that he razed from us and the siege that he broke. I f we do not do this then we are being remiss in our duty of care to our junior members.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2017 at 19:05
mmh! as a former council member of WET/ACHE,

1st, i'd like to thank Bogbreath for a very sensible and straightforward post.

2nd, I'd advise escalating the issue to GMs: what could be done in order to ban (or track) a nuisance, when sufficiant testimonies have been gathered, from players and alliances.


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