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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:10
i disagree bonaparta. even if orcs have weakest elite unit, all their other units (read fists, wolfriders and deathdealers) are quite badass. orcs have the greatest potential. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:20
Originally posted by SugarFree SugarFree wrote:

i disagree bonaparta. even if orcs have weakest elite unit, all their other units (read fists, wolfriders and deathdealers) are quite badass. orcs have the greatest potential. 

Hm % bonus on weak units is just bad! Look at the big picture - Production cost and time per 1 attack or 1 defense point per weapon/armor and you will see orcs are again most penalized of all the races and where are this wolfriders you speak of? Even if you make one spear 100% more effective in hands of spearmen unit it would still be worse then in hands of knight....


Edited by Bonaparta - 02 Aug 2012 at 00:22

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:38
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Originally posted by SugarFree SugarFree wrote:

i disagree bonaparta. even if orcs have weakest elite unit, all their other units (read fists, wolfriders and deathdealers) are quite badass. orcs have the greatest potential. 

Hm % bonus on weak units is just bad! Look at the big picture - Production cost and time per 1 attack or 1 defense point per weapon/armor and you will see orcs are again most penalized of all the races and where are this wolfriders you speak of? Even if you make one spear 100% more effective in hands of spearmen unit it would still be worse then in hands of knight....


There are more + spear troop production on the map then anything else. There are vast areas with some ok food that have nothing but + spear troop production around it. While I'm not suggestion claiming alot of that you could easily get over 200% spear troop production
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:40
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Originally posted by SugarFree SugarFree wrote:

i disagree bonaparta. even if orcs have weakest elite unit, all their other units (read fists, wolfriders and deathdealers) are quite badass. orcs have the greatest potential. 

Hm % bonus on weak units is just bad! Look at the big picture - Production cost and time per 1 attack or 1 defense point per weapon/armor and you will see orcs are again most penalized of all the races and where are this wolfriders you speak of? Even if you make one spear 100% more effective in hands of spearmen unit it would still be worse then in hands of knight....


I agree, same reason I pushed to remove the percentage bonus to resource production (specifically food) from sovereignty buildings

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:44
Originally posted by Quackers Quackers wrote:

Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Originally posted by SugarFree SugarFree wrote:

i disagree bonaparta. even if orcs have weakest elite unit, all their other units (read fists, wolfriders and deathdealers) are quite badass. orcs have the greatest potential. 

Hm % bonus on weak units is just bad! Look at the big picture - Production cost and time per 1 attack or 1 defense point per weapon/armor and you will see orcs are again most penalized of all the races and where are this wolfriders you speak of? Even if you make one spear 100% more effective in hands of spearmen unit it would still be worse then in hands of knight....


There are more + spear troop production on the map then anything else. There are vast areas with some ok food that have nothing but + spear troop production around it. While I'm not suggestion claiming alot of that you could easily get over 200% spear troop production


You don't need +unit production squares to easily get over 200% bonus production.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 01:17
Originally posted by Starry Starry wrote:

Well if that is the case, then explain the changes in March to T2 Cavs and change in terrain effects.  Anyone in the tourney can vouch for the changes made in the middle of the tourney and the results that ensued.   Races  are not balanced, haven't been since March.

They weren't balanced back in march either. It was no secret that elves had and in fact, still do have some of the best units in the game. Trueshots are hands down the best defensive units and their cavs and second only two humans. Giving them lesser equipment is hardly unbalancing things, if anything, it's re-balancing it. 

Besides, we still have no idea how much time and effort is needed in order to properly equip units.  I don't think it will be all the likely to find people decking out their armies in the best possible gear. I think the update may very well balance out the units. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 01:35
Originally posted by Starry Starry wrote:

Well if that is the case, then explain the changes in March to T2 Cavs and change in terrain effects.  Anyone in the tourney can vouch for the changes made in the middle of the tourney and the results that ensued.   Races  are not balanced, haven't been since March.   

Carry on, won't post again....

Have races ever been balanced?  If so, then why is it that a vast majority of the player base chooses two of four races and the fourth race is played by less than 10%, most of whom seem to be roleplayers?
 
Given that cavalry on the attack is grossly overpowered in comparison to the other troop types, cavalry being the human specialty, and that archers are by far the most effective defensive troops, archers being the elven specialty, I would say that numbers were unbalanced well before March.  And the people who crunch the numbers before choosing a race or building a barracks have certainly benefitted from the imbalance.
 
If a slightly reduced maximum attack bonus relative to other troop types is punitive to elves I really must ask how often you were using your archers to attack?  Ranged units are fundamentally defensive, it just so happens that elves enjoy a substantial bonus that makes their archers only slightly less effective on the attack than their infantry.  In fact, elves are the only race I can think of that could build a massive army of a single unit type and have both awesome defensive numbers and very respectable attack.  This is just encouragement to diversify... like everyone else has to.  Or you could just team up a bunch of elves with a bunch of humans and let the humans steamroll everything with their overpowered cavalry while you defend siege camps with your overpowered ranged units.  I'm surprised no one else has thought of that by now.
 
[ And before someone jumps in here, I know there are a lot of H? posters in this thread.  I'm not bashing you guys.  I honestly couldn't care less what alliance whomsoever is in.  I'm just bored with the whining that the devs have taken away the big shiny red "I WIN" button and that, gods forbid, people are going to have to tweak their tactics.  You would think people who pride themselves as gamers would accept that as a challenge and an opportunity to explore new content rather than wanting to quit because they might now have to build two or three kinds of units and pick the best one for the situation at hand]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 11:16
well they didn't have Frost Giants as a race ok!

and honestly all we need is 2 more races to be introduced and it would be balanced imo, and im not going to go into why we need 2 at the mo, I'm to busy burning my own towns Angry

and Bona is so on about everything! its not even funny....every Orc picked Orc, because they knew it was gonna be harder imo



Edited by lokifeyson - 02 Aug 2012 at 11:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 13:59
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Originally posted by SugarFree SugarFree wrote:

i disagree bonaparta. even if orcs have weakest elite unit, all their other units (read fists, wolfriders and deathdealers) are quite badass. orcs have the greatest potential. 

Hm % bonus on weak units is just bad! Look at the big picture - Production cost and time per 1 attack or 1 defense point per weapon/armor and you will see orcs are again most penalized of all the races and where are this wolfriders you speak of? Even if you make one spear 100% more effective in hands of spearmen unit it would still be worse then in hands of knight....

you kinda missed my point.
compare the stats or orcs to all other units of the other races. orcs easily have the most balanced out military ever. no unit really sucks. all an option to make. none is "to weak" to be built. 
just look at the ridiculous and silly dwarven cavalry, the horrible infantry of human and elven, and the suckish archers of humans .. orc units are all above those.
orc archers can be equipped with spears, and we got some cool spears. 
also i think that elven cavalry is superior to wolf riders just cause of their speed, not for their stats


Edited by SugarFree - 02 Aug 2012 at 14:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 15:15
The problem comes that average troops dont work very well with : sov training bonuses and tier 2 buildings.
 
a) a single unit type army, trains faster, and has lower upkeep. Plus its easier to arrange towns to produce gear for them.
 
b) a mixed army type, doesnt have any bonuses, has to split their posible sov training bonuses, benefits less from t2 buildings, requires more buildings to suply diferent type of gear, etc etc
 
As Bona said, the training times , being equal for all races, is where the problem lies ... if orcs are to stand a chance attacking, with average stated troops, they should at least have faster training ... thus quantity to overcome the lack of quality.
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