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23FEB15 - BEYOND 10 CITIES

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Alfred View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alfred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2015 at 11:34
upon a little thinking,
Would it be possible to lower ( minorly ) the population for 10 Towns. It was a nightmare just to acquire 9 Towns the first time I played! 
I do love my 5 food squares. The higher numbers will always be beyond me if I survive that long anyway.


Edited by Alfred - 26 Feb 2015 at 11:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anjire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2015 at 16:51
Hmm...with this new change someone could feasibly obtain 42 cities on one account.  

30K avg = 18 cities
31K avg = 21 cities
32K avg = 23 cities
33K avg = 25 cities
34K avg = 27 cities
35K avg = 29 cities
40K avg = 39 cities

42 cities = avg pop of 41,209 

Feasible, albeit extremely difficult but what feather in one's cap to accomplish.  

Good Luck!

***Changed the # of cities forgot a crucial step in the copy/paste on the spreadsheet  LOL


Edited by Anjire - 26 Feb 2015 at 17:45

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Dungshoveleux View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2015 at 18:41
The posts below show what seems to be possible by concentrating on food sov.
There are a lot of assumptions and of course, military sov considerations are not accounted for.
It is am exercise in seeing what is theoretically possible **on average**.


Edited by Dungshoveleux - 04 Mar 2015 at 22:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2015 at 18:42
A little explanation is required:
SQ = number of sov squares
L1 = research points per level of sov
L5 = research points for level 5 sov
L5C = cumulative total of research points for level 5 sov
%5C = cumulative food % per level 5 food sov on a typical 5 food square
DIFF = level 20 library + allembine research = 1,113 research points / hr MINUS the L5C column
What this table shows is that under the current sov system, you can only sov 14 squares to level 5 sov and still break even on research points.  This is important because it shows how far you can boost food production in order to grow cities past the level required for the NEXT city.  So food production can be boosted by 70% before research points have to go negative.  Negative research points / hr require a steady influx of books in order to prevent research points stored falling to zero at which point sov levels downwards to bring research point expenditure into line with research point income.

SQ L1 L5 L5C %5C DIFF
1 10.0 50.0 50.0 5% 1063.0
2 10.0 50.0 100.0 10% 1013.0
3 10.0 50.0 150.0 15% 963.0
4 10.0 50.0 200.0 20% 913.0
5 14.1 70.7 270.7 25% 842.3
6 14.1 70.7 341.4 30% 771.6
7 14.1 70.7 412.1 35% 700.9
8 14.1 70.7 482.8 40% 630.2
9 20.0 100.0 582.8 45% 530.2
10 20.0 100.0 682.8 50% 430.2
11 20.0 100.0 782.8 55% 330.2
12 20.0 100.0 882.8 60% 230.2
13 22.4 111.8 994.6 65% 118.4
14 22.4 111.8 1106.4 70% 6.6


Edited by Dungshoveleux - 04 Mar 2015 at 21:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2015 at 18:43
Getting beyond 10 cities is difficult.  Many players do not appreciate this because they make their first few city choices before they **really** understand how you need to play the game **for the long term**.
And I am not being sanctimonious here - I made these mistakes myself!

Choosing to site a city on a 5 food location will ultimately CHOKE OFF YOUR GROWTH.
It will limit the maximum number of cities you can achieve in the game to quite a few less than if you had exclusively used 7 food locations.  

City Buildings consume food and food consumed = the size of your city.  The sum of the sizes of your cities is compared to the target which if reached, allows you to settle or capture another city. 

Now for the complicated table:
cities = the number of cities you can have
required = the number of points (food expenditure) you need to qualify for the 'n'th city. For example: to qualify for city number 3, cities numbers 1 and 2 need to add to 2,000 points.
marginal = points required for the next city.  For example: once you have 2 cities, you need to add 1,550 points to qualify for city number 3.
av to get nxt = the number of points each existing city needs on average in order for you to reach the total points required for the next city.  For example: You need 2 cities, each of 1,000 points on average in order t oqualify for city number 3.
max fd 7p = the maximum amount of food which a city on a 7 food plot location can generate before accounting for food sov. Each food plot produces 2,014 food.  A level 20 flourmill adds +40%.  The best food spell adds +8%. So 2,014 x 7 x (1+0.40+0.08) = 20,865 food / hr for one city.
av fd sur/def = average food surplus or deficit.  Compare the  previous two columns to find out how much "spare" food on average is available in each of your cities.  For example: If you have 8 cities, in order to qualify for city number 9, each of your 8 cities must be on average 16,250 points in size.  Since the maximum food production (excluding sov bonuses) is 20,865, each city has ,on average, a food surplus of 4,615 points.  The more cities you have, the higher the required size on average for the next city.  Soon you WILL NEED FOOD SOV in order to get to the next city.  That is where the next 2 columns are relevant.
% food sov reqd = the % food sov required to make up any deficit.  For example: in order to qualify for 10 cities, each of your 9 cities will require 36.1% food sov (5,085/14,098). Note that food sov % is calculated with respect to the base food production before flourmill and before spell bonuses.
5% sov sq = the number of level 5 5% sov squares required to achieve enough food production to break even.  For example, to get city number 10, each of your existing 9 cities will require on average 7.21 sov squares.
And as we go down the table we eventually see that 19 cities require 13.6 sov squares to qualify for city number 20.  The previous table has already demonstrated that 14 sov squares is the maximum sustainable number of sov squares under current rules so city 21 is not sustainable long term without external deliveries of books and food.

cities required marginal av to get nxt max fd 7p av fd sur/def %fd sov reqd 5% sov sq
1 0 0 450 20,865 20,415 0.0% 0.00
2 450 450 1,000 20,865 19,865 0.0% 0.00
3 2,000 1,550 1,667 20,865 19,198 0.0% 0.00
4 5,000 3,000 2,500 20,865 18,365 0.0% 0.00
5 10,000 5,000 4,000 20,865 16,865 0.0% 0.00
6 20,000 10,000 6,667 20,865 14,198 0.0% 0.00
7 40,000 20,000 10,714 20,865 10,151 0.0% 0.00
8 75,000 35,000 16,250 20,865 4,615 0.0% 0.00
9 130,000 55,000 25,950 20,865 -5,085 36.1% 7.21
10 233,550 103,550 26,355 20,865 -5,490 38.9% 7.79
11 263,550 30,000 26,777 20,865 -5,912 41.9% 8.39
12 294,550 31,000 27,213 20,865 -6,348 45.0% 9.00
13 326,550 32,000 27,658 20,865 -6,793 48.2% 9.64
14 359,550 33,000 28,111 20,865 -7,246 51.4% 10.28
15 393,550 34,000 28,570 20,865 -7,705 54.7% 10.93
16 428,550 35,000 29,034 20,865 -8,169 57.9% 11.59
17 464,550 36,000 29,503 20,865 -8,638 61.3% 12.25
18 501,550 37,000 29,975 20,865 -9,110 64.6% 12.92
19 539,550 38,000 30,450 20,865 -9,585 68.0% 13.60
20 578,550 39,000 30,928 20,865 -10,063 71.4% 14.28


Edited by Dungshoveleux - 04 Mar 2015 at 22:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2015 at 18:44
There was a similar table here based on 5 food plots but I've binned it.

The main point being that large numbers of cities require a very lop sided strategy that concentrates solely on food sov to the exclusion of useful military sov.  A point well made below.



Edited by Dungshoveleux - 04 Mar 2015 at 22:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mona Lisa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 22:21
Well...  some flaws....   very few vets build all squares to SOV 5, for a whole host of reasons.  Mainly, when you eventually desire to switch to a military economy, the payout for lvl 5 military buildings is horribly inefficient compared to lesser SOV levels.  As a general rule, I will only build SOV 3 squares, but 20 of them...  and them go to SOV 5 only on a very high (13+ ) food dolmen, typically 1 per city. So for SOV based food.. it would be 19 lvl 3 farms + 1 lvl 5. when I switch to full wartime economy, i will still only build a lvl 3 troop building on the lone SOV5 square....

The ability to easily switch between a war and peace city build pretty much limits you to this, given the pain and suffering it is to claim and declaim SOV.  ...  and yes.. when you need to raise an army quickly, you will want to swap all your SOV to military production ...  and no one is going to be able to pay for 14 x lvl 5 troop SOV without have endless streams of vans supplying basic res to pay for it . . .


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 22:28
My example is just theory MONA LISA.  It doesn't take account of real world play where military and food sov is interchanged.  It is merely an exercise in determining how far one can get. I deliberately left out 6 food sov plots and dolmens because they are not guaranteed.  At most a 6f sov square adds 1%, a 7f sov square 2% and a 15f dolmen 10% so if you are lucky, in your 14 sov squares you might have the equivalent of 17 level 5 5% food sov squares.  But this is on average and you need this in EACH city if you use the above table as a guide.

I would be happy to be proved wrong.

And I do believe that the fact that the table goes further than 20 cities means that more as yet unreleased content will allow further progression when people get to 20 cities.


Edited by Dungshoveleux - 04 Mar 2015 at 22:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 23:43
I use 8 Farmstead V on a few cities. If I switch to military, I just tear down the four corners and rebuild sov 3. Or all 8 if my troops really took a beating. It only takes one day to go from Military I to II on the outer 12 squares, and another 36 for M-III.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2015 at 03:51
Originally posted by Count Rupert Count Rupert wrote:

With the ability to buy prestige scrolls now, I'm not sure the prestige gap will be as wide as is being forecast.

I so agree with this.. at FIRST I thought the scrolls would be unobtainable.. but playing the market with sales of my items has increased my ability to buy them. I'm not a super sales person, and my cities have gold when troops are down... so not so bad at gold making.

With the changes in some crafting items, harvesters/crafters can go at it and make a market for themselves. The creatures on the land, and rares of skin, gems and herbs... it's there to be gotten and made.

just sayin' can't keep looking at the negative end of the game.. play it, work with it, make suggestions to the DEVS.. if they changed it once.. I'm sure they'll do it again. 

I don't like ALL the changes, I like some of the changes.. 

You can't please ALL the people... yada yada yada... 


Edited by Diva - 05 Mar 2015 at 03:52
"Um diva.... you are sort of acting like a .... diva...." - PhoenixFire
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