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20FEB18 - Defy Death Update

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Almost Balanced Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 18:34
Sat acc becoming useless, sorry five mins limit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hyde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 19:32
I agree with Gragnog's point. I believe before this was fixed, there was a correlation to commander level and defy death success rate? I rarely saw the big commanders die but smaller commanders seemed to drop like flies, and was one of the only reasons to push for the big level commanders. With the right skills assigned commanders are functional after level 35-55, and any extra just lead to longer revive times.
 
Maybe just a 0.5%-1% chance of survival per level would just be a better thing to do rather than have Defy Death as a skill?


Edited by Hyde - 21 Feb 2018 at 19:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 20:10
Personally I think defy death is pointless as currently constituted, but there should be no complaints that it was fixed to reflect what the skill actually was labeled to do.

The ability to send wave upon wave of undying commanders that properly equipped are equivalent to approx 1k troops per was a severe imbalance.  At least now you are forced to resurrect and lose commander equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 20:56
Originally posted by Morose Morose wrote:

Personally I think defy death is pointless as currently constituted, but there should be no complaints that it was fixed to reflect what the skill actually was labeled to do.

I think that Morose has encapsulated it entirely, above.  

The first thing is to fix the skill (ie get it to do what it says on the tin), but I'm more than happy to entertain suggestions as to how it could be changed (or, indeed, how other things could be changed to make commander level more directly relevant to combat prowess - for example, commander damage multipliers by level).  There are lots of options open to us; but I can say with certainty that practically unkill-able commanders wasn't part of the Illy masterplan.

Clearly there's a balance question, and we all need to be careful with meddling with powers we don't fully understand whilst pouring oil on the troubled waters inside the Pandora's Box on top of the upset applecart that rampages through the proverbial china shop.

Sensible suggestions for commander changes are more than welcome, but not if they're tending back towards the 'immortal death machine' end of the spectrum.  

Best,

SC

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 23:00
The only scenario you really have to avoid is the one where elite attack commanders can be recycled without interruption. That's what allowed 61 troops per army to be multiplied into 1000 effective attackers. As a one-shot attack that's fine, but game balance breaks down if it can be repeated a dozen times without failing the check. Even an individual Defy Death rate of 50% would be workable, as long as the check is fully independent per commander.

Large army commanders and defensive commanders can't really be exploited the same way, just because of how those mechanics work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spektor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 00:07
I agree that 10% is pretty darn useless compared to the 10 extra hours of resurrect time.

Here is a suggestion that I believe retains a semblance of balance, usefulness, and simplicity. Greatly increase the chance of a successful roll per skill level, but then modify that chance by the commander's pre-battle HP, less than 100. So a commander with 1 HP, only has 1% of the original chance to defy death again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 00:17
This change may also impact the efficiency of sudden violent choking incidents?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 00:20
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

The only scenario you really have to avoid is the one where elite attack commanders can be recycled without interruption.

Agreed.  

But even at a (suggested a few posts above) rate of 0.5% additional Defy Death per Commander Level, there are some commanders in the Lvl 200 range that would already exceed the Defy Death limits to become essentially immortal.  

We could ofc scale it logarithmically/exponentially in some way, so stacking penalties apply.  Skill caps are another way to go; but all these have benefits/detriments to be argued.  Anyone who's ever looked at a tax code knows what I'm talking about; what to apply, where (and why) and what the thresholds are :)

I really like the idea of rewarding a player who has a Lvl 100+ commander (or indeed a 200+; yes, they do exist!).  I think that it's awesome that people have actually focused on attaining these genuinely extraordinary achievements.  However, I'd also not want to break the game in rewarding them.

Suggestions are most welcome!

Best,

SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 01:33
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

The only scenario you really have to avoid is the one where elite attack commanders can be recycled without interruption.

Agreed.  

But even at a (suggested a few posts above) rate of 0.5% additional Defy Death per Commander Level, there are some commanders in the Lvl 200 range that would already exceed the Defy Death limits to become essentially immortal.  

We could ofc scale it logarithmically/exponentially in some way, so stacking penalties apply.  Skill caps are another way to go; but all these have benefits/detriments to be argued.  Anyone who's ever looked at a tax code knows what I'm talking about; what to apply, where (and why) and what the thresholds are :)

I really like the idea of rewarding a player who has a Lvl 100+ commander (or indeed a 200+; yes, they do exist!).  I think that it's awesome that people have actually focused on attaining these genuinely extraordinary achievements.  However, I'd also not want to break the game in rewarding them.

Suggestions are most welcome!

Best,

SC
This is a report before the patch went live. As you will see from the second image, these commanders are high level. Each have defy death maxed, yet none of them lived. I would have though at least one of these would have survived based on the mechanic as it was at that time, and having bonuses for high level commanders is a very good idea. 

Its a risk v reward for the commanders, if they are more overpowered as they get to higher levels, the down side is, if they die, they take a very long time to revive. Basically if you get a level 200 commander and you give him a bonus of double division % bonus, you will want to look after it because if it dies, its going to take over a week to revive. Everything has a tradeoff and as a player you have to take a risk in which tradeoff path you will go down. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeathDealer89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2018 at 02:04
What if the level 200+ commander had a high survival rate but had to march back?  or perhaps he survived but had to march back injured like caravans do. 

At such a high level I would rather wait on a 2-5 day march than a 200 hr respawn and it would be somewhat more similar to what would really happen if a soldier survived the battle.  

Bad part is against sieges you would still end up in a lot of very rapid elite attacks.  So perhaps rather than a slow walk back there would be a paused walk back.  Say place an encampment on a neighboring square for 1 hr before the walk back begins this would also give the option of killing the commander through another battle.  

No idea how hard it would be to code these things though. 



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