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Alcie View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 03:41
Originally posted by Glin Glin wrote:


So you knew all these things were going on and you didnt report it, send an igm to the devs, or open a petition?
You honestly thought cnenc was generating THAT much gold in an honest capacity AND you knew one of his previous alts had been involved in a previous in-game scam? Really?
Maybe I misread your post above, but if not---then yeah... I don't see why you are still here.


Did I honestly think a player who had 10 cities and was really into sieging and thieving and earning gold could have quite a few billion gold to throw around? yes, yes I did.

did I know cnenc had just spontaneously gotten 50 billion or whatever and was buying up prestige? no, no I didn't. I suspect most of the people who got banned didn't either or didn't believe him even if he said so.


Did I suspect his cnenc account had been kicked? also yes, at least eventually. Do I know what the devs said? do I know if the devs let him have a new account? no, I don't. I saw him there so assumed he must be allowed to be there. The devs aren't usually exactly forthcoming about those types of things. He never really tried very hard to pretend the new account delif was not cnenc. He did portray himself as retired and only coming on to say hi. I had assumed most of the patches of gold were him emptying his old account. I did not know the extent of gold, I did know several cases and it seemed not too unreasonable to me. If you had 10 billion gold and quit the game what would you do? Parse it up and send it to a few friends.


As I said before, the default in this game is to trust. A lot of people evidently trusted someone they shouldn't have and got banned for their good will.


Do things look more suspicious IN RETROSPECT now that I know what was going on? yes, yes they do. Just like it did to the devs. big pictures look very different than localized windows. If you are not careful, though, the little details that were all that were important at the time get washed away.


It is so easy to find fault in someone elses' thinking when it doesn't involve yourself.
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Alcie View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 03:56
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I am really sad at the loss of players I respected and care about.

To the remaining players in Roads, I can only imagine your sense of loss and perhaps even bewilderment.  It is my hope that the Illy community will stand with you during this time.  I intend to.



Thank you Rill. I know we appreciate those words.

The devs were good to say this was not a witch hunt, but I am afraid it over-upsets me when I see players who act gleeful and slavering for blood over this. The devs I know at least meant well, even if I firmly believe they were mistaken about a lot of what happened or, more to the point, the intentions and beliefs of the people who walked amongst the partial contexts and partial facts which were scraped up.

Anyways, I really appreciate the people who speak towards this as a thing of loss rather than glee. I deeply hope that the new tradable prestige does not make this (and the other recent banning from today ) common occurences.


I have said my piece on the forumns and should not have continued in an additional pointless backlash. I am sorry for that.

I will stop spamming the forumns. Thank you for everyone who makes this a great game. Let us continue to try to make this a game which focuses and promotes the positive and caring rather than the negative.


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Glin View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 04:10
I honestly cannot believe that anyone would receive more than a few million gold into their ciy via caravan and not notice. 

I also cannot believe that so few people were recipients of those massive gifting arrangements and chose to not report it.  Hey to those who at least questioned their alliance leader then thats great- but such a superficial response as --uh whatever i dont know him--- would have set off red flags to me!!! 
So if I misunderstood your lengthy post and you don't have any part in the concealment of the scheme while it was happening-- then so be it. 
But yeah.. I can see how in retrospect you could say, wow- why didn't I question that? I'm trying to actually believe that anyone could be sent hundreds of millions or billions of gold without any purpose such as trade and not be uncomfortable and not question the persons motives. 
Especially as this appears to have funded a war-time period. 
Was Roads funding a war via Odd or Ness and his alliance with these funds? Was the whole war just a cute giggle to theme Was it cute to them when players quit the game as their cities were destroyed? Would they have lost their cities if the war had not raged so long without the access to the gold that Odd and Nesse had?
No, I dont really expect you to respond. I'm just wondering if others are wondering the same thing.
Take care Alcie. I'm sure that at the end of the day, we both agree that the worst part of this whole affair is the sense of betrayal everyone in Illy feels. 
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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 04:20
Originally posted by Glin Glin wrote:

Especially as this appears to have funded a war-time period. 
Was Roads funding a war via Odd or Ness and his alliance with these funds? Was the whole war just a cute giggle to theme Was it cute to them when players quit the game as their cities were destroyed? Would they have lost their cities if the war had not raged so long without the access to the gold that Odd and Nesse had?
No, I dont really expect you to respond. I'm just wondering if others are wondering the same thing.
Take care Alcie. I'm sure that at the end of the day, we both agree that the worst part of this whole affair is the sense of betrayal everyone in Illy feels. 

Which war could you possibly be referring to?  The exploit described by the developers began in August 2014, and I am not aware of any wars that have been fought between then and now.  Even if you take the original date of creation of the cnenc account, April 2014, the most recent war that occurred was essentially over by that time (although final peace was not signed until June or so).

Let's try to think clearly about this.  Obviously this is an upsetting situation, but there is no need to make it worse than it is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 04:54
This exploit did not happen during any major war.

I want to say that there is a point, for me, where I would question, warn and even distance myself but "turning in" is a question I cannot answer. If approached by a Dev/GM, I would not lie, nor would I lie by omission, but to come forward? That is the question I cannot answer.
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Glin View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 07:51
Rill and abstract, you can wish that into being if you want-- but while other alliances were working hard to rebuild their cities, these two alliances (possibly a third..?) had access to an unbelievable amount of gold for rebuilding. Further, it stands to reason that if three or four people knew of this- then there were more. And it definitely controlled major changes in market values. So, I really think you are short sighted if you are gonna sit there and say that the war was not a precursor to the thieving.   
Controlling mass amounts of gold and gifting it definitely changed strength outcomes. Frankly, it would asinine for anyone to believe it has not.

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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 08:11
So you are claiming that something that happened after the war was over in some way contributed to the war or its outcome?

In terms of rebuilding after the war, the alliances that had members who participated in this exploit were not involved in the war anyway.  They were not rebuilding their cities in the first place.

In terms of the possibility that this exploit made rebuilding more difficult by increasing the cost of resources, I have to defer to active traders.  I sell mainly basic resources and I haven't noticed any such effect.  Basic resources used to rebuild cities are not a "scarce" resource in Illy, so even the availability of additional gold would not affect the market for them much.

With regard to the possibility that additional people knew about the exploit who have not yet been discovered, I trust that the developers will be able to find them and deal with them appropriately.  Until then I don't see any reason for us to believe that this extends further than what has been described thus far.

Innuendo aside, do you have any facts to support your contentions?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 08:26
Do you understand the concepts of elasticity?
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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 08:55
No, during my MBA program in which I took a finance emphasis, they neglected to cover basic economic concepts.

Sarcasm aside, I don't claim to be an economist, but I have a general grasp of how money supply can affect prices.

I am essentially arguing that supply of basic resources is highly elastic and that therefore any change in demand for resources driven by increases in money supply would not have a very large increase in price and therefore would not be likely to affect people's ability to rebuild.

In addition, in this case the growth in gold appears to have stayed concentrated in a fairly limited number of hands.

Given a higher concentration of wealth, it seems likely that the effects of inflation would be felt more in the market for discretionary goods, such as advanced harvestables, crafted items, etc., for which supply is more inelastic, and not so much in the market for commodities, since the supply of those commodities is elastic.

Commodities by their nature have a low income elasticity of demand -- people will tend to prioritize rebuilding their cities over other activities such as the above.  Therefore an increase in income would tend to have less effect on the demand for basic resources than for luxury goods, as described above.

In addition, based on the description the developers have given regarding the ways in which a great deal of the increased money supply was used, a lot of it did not enter the economic system, but rather was deposited in alliance inventories or used to purchase prestige scrolls.  Or in some cases, simply sat in players' accounts.  This in many ways could be seen to parallel the economic recovery from the most recent recession, in which in spite of relatively "easy money" policies the people who had the money did not "spend" it (such as by banks making loans in the case of the U.S. or by players buying things in Illy).  The result in the United States was a period of low inflation in spite of "easy money" policies.  A similar situation seems to have occurred in Illy.

Given that I have an understanding of elasticity, do you see it being relevant to this situation in a way other than the one I've described?

Your argument for an observable economic effect is speculative at best, and any attempt to link it to war is utterly specious.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 14:41
Rill +1 (or A+)
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